Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by pappilon   » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:26 am

pappilon
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1072
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:29 pm

cthia wrote:As per the DB and the welcoming committee set up in Beowulfan space, it could be noted that Beowulf insisted on a more active role against the gorilla and decided to spite him in the eye. It is obvious Beowulf's decisions were done in spite. When you do things in spite, it might not always be right. If your safety is considered.



No, I don't really think so.

"Yes, he's a 600# gorilla, but he's, was, my 600# gorilla. He's stupid to go after my bf (yeah the one I've had on the side for years). I tried to warn him off, really I did. And while I'm not in love with the gorilla any more, I still love him. I don't want to see him get hurt any more than he's gonna get through his own arrogant stupidity."

Yes of course the gorilla is going to take this as yet another slap in the face. I'd say its always the abused spouse that is misunderstood, but that's not the case, is it, like ever. The "misunderstanding" is always a mere pretext for the violent release of anger at the wrong but oh so available target.

The Mandarins can't get mad at Beowulf for tipping Manticore off over Filareta. They have no clue exactly how the info leaked. Heck we have no idea how Beowulf found out. Obviously the gorilla whispers sweet nothings into his pillow as he sleeps. Taking them out in the star chamber is mere diversionary tactic for the necessary vote on the Declaration of War, which, now that there is one on the table from the GA, is a moot point.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Top
Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:09 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 10214
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

pappilon wrote:
cthia wrote:As per the DB and the welcoming committee set up in Beowulfan space, it could be noted that Beowulf insisted on a more active role against the gorilla and decided to spite him in the eye. It is obvious Beowulf's decisions were done in spite. When you do things in spite, it might not always be right. If your safety is considered.



No, I don't really think so.

"Yes, he's a 600# gorilla, but he's, was, my 600# gorilla. He's stupid to go after my bf (yeah the one I've had on the side for years). I tried to warn him off, really I did. And while I'm not in love with the gorilla any more, I still love him. I don't want to see him get hurt any more than he's gonna get through his own arrogant stupidity."

Yes of course the gorilla is going to take this as yet another slap in the face. I'd say its always the abused spouse that is misunderstood, but that's not the case, is it, like ever. The "misunderstanding" is always a mere pretext for the violent release of anger at the wrong but oh so available target.

The Mandarins can't get mad at Beowulf for tipping Manticore off over Filareta. They have no clue exactly how the info leaked. Heck we have no idea how Beowulf found out. Obviously the gorilla whispers sweet nothings into his pillow as he sleeps. Taking them out in the star chamber is mere diversionary tactic for the necessary vote on the Declaration of War, which, now that there is one on the table from the GA, is a moot point.


Kudos.

It's good to see someone displaying that they understand human nature.


Of course, spouses who have to endure infidelity could see red from the revelation of embarrassment and having been made a fool of. As a result, they can go temporarily insane and snap, crackle and drop a few Kews. I would imagine that in such extreme cases the spouse who has been the recipient of infidelity might claim to be the one abused. Scorned by the scorned lover "syndrome."

Abusive husbands never see that they slowly drove the sweet spouse away over time, until their hive runs dry.

Your sentiment that Beowulf still loves the League is poignant. It is the Mandarins they abhor for abusing and neglecting her and the kids. It is why failing to also formally inform the SLN carrying the many innocent kids simply following orders aboard the oncoming juggernaut that the Manties have laid out a welcoming mat is questionable. IMO.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:42 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 10214
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

pappilon wrote:
cthia wrote:As per the DB and the welcoming committee set up in Beowulfan space, it could be noted that Beowulf insisted on a more active role against the gorilla and decided to spite him in the eye. It is obvious Beowulf's decisions were done in spite. When you do things in spite, it might not always be right. If your safety is considered.



No, I don't really think so.

"Yes, he's a 600# gorilla, but he's, was, my 600# gorilla. He's stupid to go after my bf (yeah the one I've had on the side for years). I tried to warn him off, really I did. And while I'm not in love with the gorilla any more, I still love him. I don't want to see him get hurt any more than he's gonna get through his own arrogant stupidity."

Yes of course the gorilla is going to take this as yet another slap in the face. I'd say its always the abused spouse that is misunderstood, but that's not the case, is it, like ever. The "misunderstanding" is always a mere pretext for the violent release of anger at the wrong but oh so available target.

The Mandarins can't get mad at Beowulf for tipping Manticore off over Filareta. They have no clue exactly how the info leaked. Heck we have no idea how Beowulf found out. Obviously the gorilla whispers sweet nothings into his pillow as he sleeps. Taking them out in the star chamber is mere diversionary tactic for the necessary vote on the Declaration of War, which, now that there is one on the table from the GA, is a moot point.
cthia wrote:Kudos.

It's good to see someone displaying that they understand human nature.


Of course, spouses who have to endure infidelity could see red from the revelation of embarrassment and having been made a fool of. As a result, they can go temporarily insane and snap, crackle and drop a few Kews. I would imagine that in such extreme cases the spouse who has been the recipient of infidelity might claim to be the one abused. Scorned by the scorned lover "syndrome."

Abusive husbands never see that they slowly drove the sweet spouse away over time, until their hive runs dry.

Your sentiment that Beowulf still loves the League is poignant. It is the Mandarins they abhor for abusing and neglecting her and the kids. It is why failing to also formally inform the SLN carrying the many innocent kids simply following orders aboard the oncoming juggernaut that the Manties have laid out a welcoming mat is questionable. IMO.


I should note that my sentiment is derived from textev, kindly posted upstream by Eagleeye, of Beowulf's anger at the Mandarins for all of the evil things they've been doing for centuries. Yatta, yatta yatta. The straw that broke the camel's back is the fits the husband has caused Beowulf by being led astray by some new secret suitor who has her hooks in the Mandarins w/o them being aware of it.

It is interesting to note that Beowuld doesn't fail to acknowledge their own culpability of being a part of a League they helped allow to get out of hand.


Basically, Beowulf wanted to leave the League. But they didn't want to go quietly in the night by being all passive about it. Therefore, things won't be quiet in the night with the sound of Kews falling.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by ldwechsler   » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:42 pm

ldwechsler
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1014
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 12:15 pm

pappilon wrote:
cthia wrote:As per the DB and the welcoming committee set up in Beowulfan space, it could be noted that Beowulf insisted on a more active role against the gorilla and decided to spite him in the eye. It is obvious Beowulf's decisions were done in spite. When you do things in spite, it might not always be right. If your safety is considered.



No, I don't really think so.

"Yes, he's a 600# gorilla, but he's, was, my 600# gorilla. He's stupid to go after my bf (yeah the one I've had on the side for years). I tried to warn him off, really I did. And while I'm not in love with the gorilla any more, I still love him. I don't want to see him get hurt any more than he's gonna get through his own arrogant stupidity."

Yes of course the gorilla is going to take this as yet another slap in the face. I'd say its always the abused spouse that is misunderstood, but that's not the case, is it, like ever. The "misunderstanding" is always a mere pretext for the violent release of anger at the wrong but oh so available target.

The Mandarins can't get mad at Beowulf for tipping Manticore off over Filareta. They have no clue exactly how the info leaked. Heck we have no idea how Beowulf found out. Obviously the gorilla whispers sweet nothings into his pillow as he sleeps. Taking them out in the star chamber is mere diversionary tactic for the necessary vote on the Declaration of War, which, now that there is one on the table from the GA, is a moot point.
cthia wrote:Kudos.

It's good to see someone displaying that they understand human nature.


Of course, spouses who have to endure infidelity could see red from the revelation of embarrassment and having been made a fool of. As a result, they can go temporarily insane and snap, crackle and drop a few Kews. I would imagine that in such extreme cases the spouse who has been the recipient of infidelity might claim to be the one abused. Scorned by the scorned lover "syndrome."

Abusive husbands never see that they slowly drove the sweet spouse away over time, until their hive runs dry.

Your sentiment that Beowulf still loves the League is poignant. It is the Mandarins they abhor for abusing and neglecting her and the kids. It is why failing to also formally inform the SLN carrying the many innocent kids simply following orders aboard the oncoming juggernaut that the Manties have laid out a welcoming mat is questionable. IMO.


I should note that my sentiment is derived from textev, kindly posted upstream by Eagleeye, of Beowulf's anger at the Mandarins for all of the evil things they've been doing for centuries. Yatta, yatta yatta. The straw that broke the camel's back is the fits the husband has caused Beowulf by being led astray by some new secret suitor who has her hooks in the Mandarins w/o them being aware of it.

It is interesting to note that Beowuld doesn't fail to acknowledge their own culpability of being a part of a League they helped allow to get out of hand.


Basically, Beowulf wanted to leave the League. But they didn't want to go quietly in the night by being all passive about it. Therefore, things won't be quiet in the night with the sound of Kews falling.[/quote]

The problem with assigning collective guilt is that the vast majority of the people now condemned had no idea what was happening and might well have disapproved.

Beowulf had often protested some of the actions of the League and got nowhere. However, it was the only game in town.

They left when the could, when there was a viable option. If you want a viable analogy, think of a person married to a brutal life-partner. If the victim has no skills and society provides no support, they are stuck.

But suddenly there is some support and they leave.

Let's be real here.
Top
Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by pappilon   » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:16 pm

pappilon
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1072
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:29 pm

ldwechsler wrote:
The problem with assigning collective guilt is that the vast majority of the people now condemned had no idea what was happening and might well have disapproved.


The government of Beowulf like all the governments have shared responsibility. The citizenry have no ability (or absolute limited ability) to create change, opposition, a voice crying out in the wilderness. As far as the SLN; "If you can't take a joke, you shouldn't ha ve enlisted." Not trying to be flippant. They're in a bad position not of their making with no good way out, doing their jobs to the best of their ability in the face of the avalanche.

Beowulf had often protested some of the actions of the League and got nowhere. However, it was the only game in town.

They left when the could, when there was a viable option. If you want a viable analogy, think of a person married to a brutal life-partner. If the victim has no skills and society provides no support, they are stuck.

But suddenly there is some support and they leave.

Let's be real here.


They could have left at any time. Its not like they were an uneducated housewife with 5 children from 6-1. More like a Medical Professional (specialty: genetics) who stayed in a relationship too long because it was comfortable. Then when it became obvious that it was a relationship devoid of love, and the spouse suddenly made it quite clear that there wasn't even mutual respect, it rapidly devolved into this fur ball.

Then the spouse turned abusive.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Top
Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by BrightSoul   » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:27 pm

BrightSoul
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1361
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:51 am

OK gang lets see if we can put this into perspective using your analogy.

Fair warning this is gonna get nasty because what you are saying is indeed that nasty in the perspective of league citizen. You are talking like this is Karma against Beowulf so lets carry your analogy to the comparative extreme you have lead us to. You are saying that an Eridani Edict violation is "Karma" for stepping out with a new boyfriend on an abusive life partner correct?

OK, so what you are saying is that since you are stepping out on your abuser with a new man that child rape is ok in the community's eyes.

The Eridani Edict has been established since Honor of the Queen as the single foreign policy in Solarian history that would unite the League to act. Can we please move on from this ridiculous analogy?

Lets keep in mind that the EE attack on Beowulf is in fact nothing less that the Detweiler revenge as planned 600 years ago. It will be the single act that will shatter the League as a whole. Shatter it so badly that entire SLN units will revolt against the Mandarins and their supporters.

Just EEEEWWWW.

Ugh I feel dirty for writing this post now thanks a lot.

To the rest of the forum, I apologize.
Top
Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by kzt   » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:51 pm

kzt
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 9538
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

It’s not the actual MA vengeance. They really want Beowulf to know they lost. It’s just a good opportunity they are seizing. In one moment they cripple the GA’s production, destroy the SL and have Beowulf stabbed by the precious SL they created.
Top
Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by ldwechsler   » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:49 pm

ldwechsler
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1014
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 12:15 pm

kzt wrote:It’s not the actual MA vengeance. They really want Beowulf to know they lost. It’s just a good opportunity they are seizing. In one moment they cripple the GA’s production, destroy the SL and have Beowulf stabbed by the precious SL they created.



Very good point. The Detweilers have hated Beowulf for centuries. Now Beowulf might be destroyed.

And even better. The damage done will shock the daylights out of the rest of the League. Beowulf was a founding planet and was always considered a moral leader.

A destroyed Beowulf...more likely a greatly damaged one, will totally ruin the Mandarins. They won't be able to talk about neo-barbs. A lot of planets have people who intermarried with them and have lot relatives.

And they provide a very strong motivation for the GA to NOT hold back at all.
Top
Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by BrightSoul   » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:23 am

BrightSoul
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1361
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:51 am

ldwechsler wrote:
kzt wrote:It’s not the actual MA vengeance. They really want Beowulf to know they lost. It’s just a good opportunity they are seizing. In one moment they cripple the GA’s production, destroy the SL and have Beowulf stabbed by the precious SL they created.



Very good point. The Detweilers have hated Beowulf for centuries. Now Beowulf might be destroyed.

And even better. The damage done will shock the daylights out of the rest of the League. Beowulf was a founding planet and was always considered a moral leader.

A destroyed Beowulf...more likely a greatly damaged one, will totally ruin the Mandarins. They won't be able to talk about neo-barbs. A lot of planets have people who intermarried with them and have lot relatives.

And they provide a very strong motivation for the GA to NOT hold back at all.


I don't get the impression that Beowulf will be destroyed or even "greatly" damaged. 10-20 million out of 12 billion isn't that great a number and I rather get the impression that it'll be a city, ie Columbia or Grendal. Considering how much gets done in orbit or various sites throughout the system a city buster won't be as much an impact as the Yawata Strike did. Lets keep in mind that Oyster Bay was a stealth strike aimed specifically at the industrial infrastructure of Manticore. The stations were attacked because they were where the industries were and the workforce for that industry.

How are they going to engineer a total destruction of the system infrastructure and not make it clear that this was a deliberate, pre-planned attack on that industry? I kinda got the impression as I read that this was going to be covered as blindfire rather than the pre-scouted and well executed attack of the Graser Torps of Oyster Bay.

All in all Manticore probably took a greater hit than Beowulf will take as a percentage of the most productive population. 7.5 million of 3.6 billion is a larger absolute percentage of Manticore's population and it was largely the most productive sector. On the other hand this will be far more horrifying since it won't be military targets like shipyards and their supporting industry. Still gonna be traumatizing, probably more so than the hit Manticore took.
Top
Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by ldwechsler   » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:17 am

ldwechsler
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1014
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 12:15 pm

Weird Harold wrote:
cthia wrote:...who's to say it wouldn't have worked? ...


Sandra Crandall? Adm Byng?

Oooops, they're both dead. How about the survivors from their commands?

Just about anyone who traveled through the Beowulf terminus -- like maybe the dispatch boat that sat around the Manticore end of the WHJ before bringing word of Adm Filareta's arrival?


There were a real lot of people in the League who knew about it. Remember, more than a million naval personnel. There were orders from Technodyne, etc.

The only ones who really owed loyalty to the League were its bureaucrats.
Top

Return to Honorverse