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BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA

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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:26 pm

cthia
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cthia wrote:
HHow did Beowulf not aid? And how are the Manties not League enemies?

Distance yourself as a reader who hates all things Mandarin. Beowulf was complicit.
Joat42 wrote:Explain in detail how Beowulf was complicit, because so far you haven't managed to produce one coherent argument why they where complicit.
pappilon wrote:Yes, they are guilty of notifying an ally of theirs with whom there have been ...incidents. There is no IMMANENT (as in warships passing through Beowulf/Manticore's WHJ headed for Earth. At this point there ios no declaration of war on any side. Immanent invasion does not apply. Sorry just legality. And for some law is law. And Constitution, no matter how dead or inconvenient is still the law above all other laws.

About divorce, there's a hole in the fence between you and your neighbor, you've known about it for years, you know your wife's been "popping over" to visit the neighbor since the hole was discovered. And NOW you act all angry and enraged that "there's something awfuwwwy scwewy going on awound here." Now that she's filing for divorce?



I always thought she was "popping over" through the hole in the fence to borrow some flour and sugar. She's been baking an awful lot of pastries lately. At least that's what she told me. The lying witch. :oops: :?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:43 pm

cthia
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Joat42 wrote:
cthia wrote:I addressed the trap thingy elsewhere. One of Beowulf's mistakes, IMO, is that they didn't inform the Mandarins that the RMN knew they were coming. The RMN did that. But the RMN is a batch of neobarbs. Beowulf isn't. The Mandarins simply thought the RMN was bluffing. Of course, any idiot navy would have known the gorilla was on its way. The Mandarins didn't trust anything they said. Why wouldn't they try and bluff themselves out of the path of the oncoming juggernaut? "The Manties are pissing in their boots."

That's not in the book. Just you projecting again.

What Kolokoltsov thought was that the Manties may be bluffing but regardless he thought it was better to let it play out because the alternatives also sucked.

If you happen to have the book near you - just read chapter 14:
Innokentiy Kolokoltsov, ART, Chapter 14, excerpt wrote:Of course, even if they were actually terrified, they’d be sending him exactly this sort of correspondence. Diplomatic threats cost nothing, and the temptation to run a bluff, to convince Kolokoltsov they could do to Filareta what they’d done to Crandall—especially if they really couldn’t—had to be overwhelming. If they could frighten him into calling Filareta off, they ran the table without having to fire a single missile. Which would also just happen to save them if they didn’t have any missiles left to fire.

Which is all well and good, but doesn’t change the fact that they may actually be able to do exactly what Carmichael’s threatening. And if they are, and if they really are prepared to hand all their notes to someone like O’Hanrahan…

His expression turned bleak as he contemplated just how damaging the publication of Carmichael’s correspondence could prove if things went to hell on Filareta. Yet it would be almost as damaging to take the ambassador’s “advice.” Sending the stand down orders Manticore was demanding could only be seen as a sign of weakness. It would damage the League’s prestige still further, and that could only worsen the consequences they all feared in the Verge and the Shell, which didn’t even consider the personal consequences to him and his colleagues. Or, for that matter, the potential constitutional train wreck when everyone began assigning blame and, in the process, revealed just how threadbare the pretense of representative government in the Solarian League truly was.

But if we don’t order him to stand down and it turns out remotely as badly as Carmichael’s warning us it will, we’ll have all of those consequences plus the deaths of thousands of our own spacers!



Which side of "may be bluffing" do you think most SLN officers leaned on that thought? Not just Kolokoltsov, but yea, him too.

Lower side or upper side?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by n7axw   » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:48 pm

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Kolokoltzov was gaming the system in the only way he knew. What the Mandarins failed to understand was that the rules had changed and Manticore wasn't playing their game.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:00 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:SNIP

They may not have specifically pointed to Beowulf as their source but the Mandarins knew Raging Justice wouldn't be a surprise, and had time to call it off. But like you said, they refused to listen - but even then Manticore did it's best to resolve the invasion, while maintaining their sovereignty, without loss of life. (The "trap" was only plan B)


Weeks before they launched the attack, it was already in the Solly media. So Carmichael could have informed Manticore in plenty of time. But there wouldn't have been a Grand Alliance without the tip from Beowulf to Haven.

Rob
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:07 am

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pappilon wrote:
Joat42 wrote:SNIP

And after the first transit of ships is destroyed the forts never have to fire another shot. The next group through enters the debris field and takes itself out of existence with no wedge or bow walls to peotect them from impacts.

We saw that in another transit where ships crashed into othrs and the tugs had to clear the wreckage to avoid worse.


That was White Haven's double transit.

After the first max transit of ships, the Junction bridge is shut down for 17 hours. And the ships are dead before they can even re-configure from their sails. The RMN or Astro control would have already swept up the debris using ships wedges as a hazard to navigation.

Rob
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by ldwechsler   » Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:43 am

ldwechsler
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Armed Neo-Bob wrote:
pappilon wrote:SNIP

And after the first transit of ships is destroyed the forts never have to fire another shot. The next group through enters the debris field and takes itself out of existence with no wedge or bow walls to peotect them from impacts.

We saw that in another transit where ships crashed into othrs and the tugs had to clear the wreckage to avoid worse.


That was White Haven's double transit.

After the first max transit of ships, the Junction bridge is shut down for 17 hours. And the ships are dead before they can even re-configure from their sails. The RMN or Astro control would have already swept up the debris using ships wedges as a hazard to navigation.

Rob[/quote]


Yet Beowulf gets blame. It depends on who's doing the spin. Also, Beowulf's delegates seem not to have used the "all your ships would have been destroyed" defense. That could be a factor as well.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Eagleeye   » Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:47 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:
Yet Beowulf gets blame. It depends on who's doing the spin. Also, Beowulf's delegates seem not to have used the "all your ships would have been destroyed" defense. That could be a factor as well.


Oh, but they did, at least in their discussion with Admiral Simpson, prior to 2nd BoMa. And I'm sure, Beowulf was able and ready to make that discussion public, after Reids motion was on it's way. They did it not in so plain words that even a 3 year old could grasp it - but they were plain enough nonetheless, regarding that they were said during an official diplomatic negotiation ...
ART, Chapter 7, snippet 1 wrote: Everything we have heard and been able to piece together, however, suggests they’ve concentrated their defenses to cover the Junction from their side more throughly than at any time since the Star Kingdom took Trevor’s Star away from the People’s Republic. At the very least, the forces they already had in place have to be at a very high level of alert.


ART, Chapter 7, snippet 2 wrote:“At the same time, I think we’ve probably seen a bit more of Manticore here than the Office of Strategy and Planning’s seen in Old Chicago. I’m not trying to cast any aspersions on the analysts and planners in question”—there might, Caddell-Markham thought, have been just a hint of insincerity in that last little bit—“but everything we’ve ever seen out of the Manties suggests their first reaction to any threat, especially to their home system, is going to be to kill it. And whatever they may have used at Spindle, I think we can safely assume they have even heavier weapons defending the home system.”


To be more straightforward in something similar to diplomatic language is simply not possible ...
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:14 pm

cthia
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n7axw wrote:Kolokoltzov was gaming the system in the only way he knew. What the Mandarins failed to understand was that the rules had changed and Manticore wasn't playing their game.

Don

Indeed Don.

Beowulf's failure was in their accounting -- of the repercussions regarding their behavior. Which obviously leads to the planet reaping concussions of angry, scorned, chest-pounding, ugly, hairy gorilla.

If the concussions are really the design of a Malignant instigator, well, it isn't like they had to push the garish gorilla all that much. It is as if the gorilla really believes anyone else really believes, that they drove all the way there simply to turn around and return all the way home without incident, if the vote didn't go their way. After all, the gorilla has always been known to be agreeable, respectful, understanding and kind over the years to all of its wives.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by ldwechsler   » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:20 pm

ldwechsler
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cthia wrote:
n7axw wrote:Kolokoltzov was gaming the system in the only way he knew. What the Mandarins failed to understand was that the rules had changed and Manticore wasn't playing their game.

Don

Indeed Don.

Beowulf's failure was in their accounting -- of the repercussions regarding their behavior. Which obviously leads to the planet reaping concussions of angry, scorned, chest-pounding, ugly, hairy gorilla.

If the concussions are really the design of a Malignant instigator, well, it isn't like they had to push the garish gorilla all that much. It is as if the gorilla really believes that anyone else really believes that they drove all the way there simply to turn all the way around and return home without incident if the vote didn't go their way. After all, the gorilla has always been known to be agreeable, respectful, understanding and kind over the years to all of its wives.


The problem is the difference between reality and appearance. Forget the whole "appearance is reality" meme.

Had the Sollies really listened, they would have learned there was no way they could have successfully traversed the junction as long as Manticore defended it. Had Filareta won, they could have sailed through.

But without that, there were a limited number of ships they could get through. Some math specialists here estimated six to seven ships would cause a one hour disruption.

Seven ships, even the best the Sollies had, could not stand up to the opposition for an hour. And if 17 went in, they also could not do it. Remember there was at least one fort and a lot of pods there. Manticore certainly knew they were at Beowulf.

They could have tried more than 17 ships and I don't think anyone knows what might have happened.

But it's the politics that count.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:23 pm

cthia
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Gorilla writing is all over the wall...

The votes are in! Beowulf is leaving its jealous boyfriend!

...

" :o "

...


"KAMISAMA KONG!"

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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