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BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA

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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:34 pm

cthia
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ldwechsler wrote:
cthia wrote:I almost forgot George, excellent points btw and some things I hadn't considered, some I did. One was that under these conditions the DB would have been informed to await Filareta's message, being that he was in charge of the mission, if, as you said and I hadn't considered, Filareta knew about Tsang.

If Filareta didn't know about Tsang, the DB should have been directed to contact him and inform him of the fact and enquired about the disposition of the system defenses.



It's such fun to watch the admiring comments of the Filareta fan club. Why no more cheers for the mandarins. AFter all, they planned to bring peace...through conquest.

What Filareta fan?

Aren't all wars essentially efforts to bring peace by conquest?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by kzt   » Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:35 pm

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George J. Smith wrote:
I thinks the DB's are a bit myopic and would not have been able to see that the system defences were all operational.

Well, how do you determine operationally of highly stealthed missile pods in unknown orbits? You should be able to see that the orbital fortresses are still there, but that isn’t most of the firepower.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Vince   » Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:21 pm

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Regarding the SLN dispatch boat being covered as a news courier:

The DB was hanging out at the Junction and should have been easily be able to see that the Junction defenses (forts, etc.) were fully intact.

The DB would not have been able to see anything near Manticore A's hyper limit, even Admiral Filareta's fleet hyper transition near Sphinx, from the Junction. DBs do not carry an extremely sensitive sensor suite and don't have a tactical station on their bridge, nor do they have a Combat Information Center (CIC).*

The Manticore Wormhole Junction is 412 light minutes from Manticore A (per House of Steel), while Manticore A's hyper limit is 22 light minutes from the star. That's at least 6.5 light hours from the Junction to Manticore A's hyper limit.

* I'm not sure that even a superdreadnought would be able to see all the way across 6.5 light hours with only its onboard sensor capability, at least not in any detail. An SD probably? maybe? would have been able to see a hyper transit the size of 11th Fleet's (I think?).
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:41 pm

cthia
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Vince wrote:Regarding the SLN dispatch boat being covered as a news courier:

The DB was hanging out at the Junction and should have been easily be able to see that the Junction defenses (forts, etc.) were fully intact.

The DB would not have been able to see anything near Manticore A's hyper limit, even Admiral Filareta's fleet hyper transition near Sphinx, from the Junction. DBs do not carry an extremely sensitive sensor suite and don't have a tactical station on their bridge, nor do they have a Combat Information Center (CIC).*

The Manticore Wormhole Junction is 412 light minutes from Manticore A (per House of Steel), while Manticore A's hyper limit is 22 light minutes from the star. That's at least 6.5 light hours from the Junction to Manticore A's hyper limit.

* I'm not sure that even a superdreadnought would be able to see all the way across 6.5 light hours with only its onboard sensor capability, at least not in any detail. An SD probably? maybe? would have been able to see a hyper transit the size of 11th Fleet's (I think?).


Vince wrote:Regarding the SLN dispatch boat being covered as a news courier:

The DB was hanging out at the Junction and should have been easily be able to see that the Junction defenses (forts, etc.) were fully intact.

The DB would not have been able to see anything near Manticore A's hyper limit, even Admiral Filareta's fleet hyper transition near Sphinx, from the Junction. DBs do not carry an extremely sensitive sensor suite and don't have a tactical station on their bridge, nor do they have a Combat Information Center (CIC).*

The Manticore Wormhole Junction is 412 light minutes from Manticore A (per House of Steel), while Manticore A's hyper limit is 22 light minutes from the star. That's at least 6.5 light hours from the Junction to Manticore A's hyper limit.

* I'm not sure that even a superdreadnought would be able to see all the way across 6.5 light hours with only its onboard sensor capability, at least not in any detail. An SD probably? maybe? would have been able to see a hyper transit the size of 11th Fleet's (I think?).


Very interesting Vince. I really need a reread and asap. Asap would be when my Labor Day company has filled their bellies and run from fear of bursting! LOL

It's not that I don't believe you but it seems odd that any ship would be allowed to stooge around such a busy junction simply hanging out. It seems to me it'd be more like "Keep it moving, go on about your business."

Of course, with such a huge volume of space, hanging out could mean anything. But would still appear suspicious.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:56 pm

TFLYTSNBN

Dispatch boats probably run routes in relays. Very likely that DBs hang out at Wormhole junctions and termini to wait for other DBs to bring news then rush the latest along their route.

cthia wrote:
Vince wrote:Regarding the SLN dispatch boat being covered as a news courier:

The DB was hanging out at the Junction and should have been easily be able to see that the Junction defenses (forts, etc.) were fully intact.

The DB would not have been able to see anything near Manticore A's hyper limit, even Admiral Filareta's fleet hyper transition near Sphinx, from the Junction. DBs do not carry an extremely sensitive sensor suite and don't have a tactical station on their bridge, nor do they have a Combat Information Center (CIC).*

The Manticore Wormhole Junction is 412 light minutes from Manticore A (per House of Steel), while Manticore A's hyper limit is 22 light minutes from the star. That's at least 6.5 light hours from the Junction to Manticore A's hyper limit.

* I'm not sure that even a superdreadnought would be able to see all the way across 6.5 light hours with only its onboard sensor capability, at least not in any detail. An SD probably? maybe? would have been able to see a hyper transit the size of 11th Fleet's (I think?).


Vince wrote:Regarding the SLN dispatch boat being covered as a news courier:

The DB was hanging out at the Junction and should have been easily be able to see that the Junction defenses (forts, etc.) were fully intact.

The DB would not have been able to see anything near Manticore A's hyper limit, even Admiral Filareta's fleet hyper transition near Sphinx, from the Junction. DBs do not carry an extremely sensitive sensor suite and don't have a tactical station on their bridge, nor do they have a Combat Information Center (CIC).*

The Manticore Wormhole Junction is 412 light minutes from Manticore A (per House of Steel), while Manticore A's hyper limit is 22 light minutes from the star. That's at least 6.5 light hours from the Junction to Manticore A's hyper limit.

* I'm not sure that even a superdreadnought would be able to see all the way across 6.5 light hours with only its onboard sensor capability, at least not in any detail. An SD probably? maybe? would have been able to see a hyper transit the size of 11th Fleet's (I think?).


Very interesting Vince. I really need a reread and asap. Asap would be when my Labor Day company has filled their bellies and run from fear of bursting! LOL

It's not that I don't believe you but it seems odd that any ship would be allowed to stooge around such a busy junction simply hanging out. It seems to me it'd be more like "Keep it moving, go on about your business."

Of course, with such a huge volume of space, hanging out could mean anything. But would still appear suspicious.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:24 pm

cthia
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TFLYTSNBN wrote:Dispatch boats probably run routes in relays. Very likely that DBs hang out at Wormhole junctions and termini to wait for other DBs to bring news then rush the latest along their route.

And to think I almost included a sarcastic notion that it isn't likely that they'll be waiting for friends to arrive. Thanks FLY.

You know, that reminds me of the relay PONY EXPRESS used to do in the days of ponies delivering the mail to give them a chance to rest.

Vince wrote:The DB was hanging out at the Junction and should have been easily be able to see that the Junction defenses (forts, etc.) were fully intact.


Which brings us right back to why Tsang wasn't alerted?

And to George's sentiment that the occupants of the DB may not have understood Forts and war. Since the DB was being used as a naval auxiliary at the time, it seems odd some knowledgeable military personnel wasn't onboard.

I know the gorilla is arrogant BUT DAMN!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by tlb   » Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:53 am

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George J. Smith wrote: I thinks the DB's are a bit myopic and would not have been able to see that the system defences were all operational.

cthia wrote: Thanks George.

That's why I included the part about Filareta definitely being able to see. In which case he could have alerted the DB to the fact.

"DB! Abort! Abort! I say again, abort!"

George J. Smith wrote:cthia

2 things come to mind:

I can't remember how long it was after 11th fleet arrived and the DB translated, but it could have been short enough that a regular comm message would not have reached the DB in time.

Did Filareta know about the proposed MWJ transit part of the plan?

cthia wrote:Thanks again George.

I do recall the moment Honor chose to illuminate those stealthy system defense pods now that you've mentioned it. Which reminds me of another question.* But the pods would not have even come into play against Tsang's fleet, because the fort would have ripped her heart out. No? The hidden pods were only an object of concern to Filareta, and maybe strictly by association and inference an object to Tsang. Because if she had somehow fought off the forts, whatever she had left would have been left way out on a limb if Filareta was already burnt toast.

*About the stealthy pods. Are the pods stealth normally activated? Or do they go active upon the detection of hostile forces? Wouldn't round the clock activation of system defense pods be unrealistic?

Same dilemma of the Manty Home system trying to maintain their current state of readiness, DEFCON 3.

I am not sure about system defense pods, but ordinarily pods do not need to use stealth, because they do not had a wedge. I expect that what illuminated the system defense pods was an order from Honor to turn their beacons on. Here is a quote from Honor Among Enemies, chapter 29:
In light of any missile pod's complete vulnerability to any weapon, BuWeaps was still trying to come up with a design made out of sufficiently low-signature materials to defeat enemy fire control. They hadn't quite managed that yet, but they had come up with one whose radar return was far weaker than something its size ought to have been, and their new optical coating was much more effective against both visual detection and the laser pulses of the lidar most navies favored for short-range fire control, as well. Which meant they didn't look big enough to be any particular threat . . . a fact upon which Honor had counted when she, Cardones, and Hughes planned their initial tactics.

It was after this action that a request was put in to add a beacon to help after action recovery.
Now about system pods: If they are expected to be on their own for extended times, then they need a power source and improved communications. Perhaps even some capability to move. Would it be a good idea to attach four system pods to an unmanned module that could supply that need, rather than duplicating equipment in each pod?
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:51 am

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tlb wrote:I am not sure about system defense pods, but ordinarily pods do not need to use stealth, because they do not had a wedge. I expect that what illuminated the system defense pods was an order from Honor to turn their beacons on. Here is a quote from Honor Among Enemies, chapter 29:
Honor Among Enemies, chapter 29 wrote:In light of any missile pod's complete vulnerability to any weapon, BuWeaps was still trying to come up with a design made out of sufficiently low-signature materials to defeat enemy fire control. They hadn't quite managed that yet, but they had come up with one whose radar return was far weaker than something its size ought to have been, and their new optical coating was much more effective against both visual detection and the laser pulses of the lidar most navies favored for short-range fire control, as well. Which meant they didn't look big enough to be any particular threat . . . a fact upon which Honor had counted when she, Cardones, and Hughes planned their initial tactics.


Well, it does use stealth, in a sense. I'd categorize it as the innate difference between passive and active.

Tlb, thanks for that info.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:05 am

cthia
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Can someone supply this information?



Tonnage:

Streak Boat:

Dispatch Boat:



Is my memory correct that a Streak Boat passes as a Dispatch Boat?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Dauntless   » Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:37 am

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i don't think exact tonnages for streak of dispatch boats have been given beyond the off hand comments in In Enemy hands about Honor's yacht and how it was basically a civliian dispatch boat.

in other threads there has been some info from things like Jaynes and other books developed for various honorverse games but how accurate they are i don't know.

generally I believe a Dispatch boat will be about 60K tons (pre war destroyers were about 80K and a dispatch boat is basically a small destroyer without weapons), Streak boats haen't been different enough to rise eyebrows, so the added equipment for "streak" ability is probably no more then an extra 2/3K which is not enough difference to draw attention.
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