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BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA

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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:03 pm

TFLYTSNBN

All cogent points but you fail to appreciate just how rapidly the strategic situation and the balance of power evolved. Up until the BoM, the SKM was struggling to survive. Up until the deployment of Apollo, the qualitative advantage of the RMN was not yet adequate to overcome the quantative advantage of the SLN. Even after the BoM, the RMN was in no position to safeguard the SEM and take on the SLN. Only after the peace with the Republic of Haven was the RMN so utterly dominant over the SLN.

Only when the above evolution occurred was it was reasonably sensible for Beawulf to seceed from the SL. If the SEM was conquered, there was no way that Beawulf could stand against Haven.

Unfortunately; the situation after deployment of Apollo, the BoM, and the peace with Haven evolved with extreme rapidity. The battles with Bing, Crandlr and Fillarta occurred over how many months? The SLN was already in a shooting war the the RMN before Beawulf had an opportunity to seceed. Secession during war time was the only opportunity.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Joat42   » Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:00 am

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cthia, your entire argument boils down to "Beowulf did wrong!" when in reality they where morally and legally right and the SLN & the Mandarins where morally and legally wrong. No matter how you spin that it doesn't change the facts.

It's not like Beowulf had tried to address the problems in the Assembly, again and again. And when they finally realized it's not possible they wanted out.

And if you believe that Beowulf confronting the Mandarins would have changed anything, I have bridge to sell. And from a legal standpoint it would have been bad to directly confront the Mandarins since that could establish a precedent that the Mandarins power supersede the Assembly's.

Also, you don't think they tried going public? The story about Raging Justice was in the tabloids for weeks and the Solarian public opinion was against Manticore because of all the propaganda and it didn't get better after the SLN got their hands handed to them. Do you really think one reasonable voice could be heard in that kind of environment?

Everyone tried to play by the book except the SLN and the Mandarins, and for some reason you want to blame Beowulf for that.

All in all, no matter what illegal actions the SLN and the Mandarins did, according to you it's Beowulfs own fault for getting attacked or not acting earlier or differently. Should've, would've and could've is extremely easy in hindsight.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:25 pm

cthia
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Joat42 wrote:cthia, your entire argument boils down to "Beowulf did wrong!"

Nope.

I never said that Beowulf was ultimately wrong. In fact, I recall correcting you on that in a post upstream. Beowulf made some wrong decisions to try to accomplish what was right. Very wrong decisions considering the disposition of her husband. There is an. . . 800# difference. It isn't about blame, it is about karma being attached to the decisions you make. Internally, I think Beowulf knew damn well they'd be taken to task by the Mandarins/SLN. They simply hoped their new bfs muscles would protect them. I haven't read UH, but from what I gather the new bf did quite well for himself, but, the new bf simply couldn't stave off karma.

Joat42 wrote:when in reality they where morally and legally right and the SLN & the Mandarins where morally and legally wrong.

Nope again.

I do recall going so far as admitting that history would record that Beowulf made the right moral decision? But the correct moral decision isn't always the right decision for all involved. All meaning, their own people. But sure, history most likely will record that they made the right moral decision regarding the officers blindly following orders aboard Tsang's ships. Albeit, whether it was an absolutely correct moral decision overall, is questionable.

Preventing Tsang's forces from translating saved the lives of Tsang's forces. And I imagine they will be thanking Beowulf for that when they are old and gray and have a chance to do a little self reflection. But the karma it set in motion was certainly going to cost a whole lot more lives overall. And they knew that.

Making an act of treason in the eyes of the husband. Very very questionable.

In the eyes of the families of the people who died. . . well, they may have another thing or three, yet, to say about the authenticity of history.


Joat42 wrote:No matter how you spin that it doesn't change the facts.

Agreed, if those facts are. . . Beowulf, the karma suits ya.

Joat42 wrote:It's not like Beowulf had tried to address the problems in the Assembly, again and again. And when they finally realized it's not possible they wanted out.
Yes, they did try to address problems in the Assembly for centuries. Age old problems. This discussion is about the more immediate problem they had on the front burner of an out-of-control ape headed to Manticore to bust some heads. They didn't take that to the Assembly. Sweet Patricia Hadley, bless her sweet lil ol heart, took it to the Assembly after the fact. In one of my favorite elocutions in the entire series. After the fact. Akin to a wife chastising the actions of a jealous husband.

Joat42 wrote:And if you believe that Beowulf confronting the Mandarins would have changed anything, I have bridge to sell.
I'll even supply the seed capital. You and I could make a killing on anyone who actually does believe it, because I certainly don't.

BUT! They could have done an end around and took the stinking mess to the citizens of the League where it belonged. If they had made up their minds to rat on the Mandarins, rat on them to the right people.


Joat42 wrote:And from a legal standpoint it would have been bad to directly confront the Mandarins since that could establish a precedent that the Mandarins power supersede the Assembly's.
What the hell!? Perhaps it would have brought it to the attention to the citizens of the League that the Mandarins power DID supersede the Assembly's.


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From what I gather, isn't that exactly what Harrington ultimately made clear to the citizens of the League in the end? Might've saved Honor the trouble.

Joat42 wrote:Also, you don't think they tried going public? The story about Raging Justice was in the tabloids for weeks and the Solarian public opinion was against Manticore because of all the propaganda and it didn't get better after the SLN got their hands handed to them. Do you really think one reasonable voice could be heard in that kind of environment?

HELL NO I don't think they tried going public. Because they didn't. I don't know how some of the rudiments of truth did hit the faxes, but Beowulf sure as hell didn't take credit for it. Consider what you just said Joat. You do know what "tabloids" are, right? Beowulf, itself, didn't take the bull by the horns. And yes, I do believe that people would have paid attention to a formal outing of the Mandarins by their most important founder. Other than some damn seedy tabloid that is certainly a bastion of truth, that the average person who matters might not even read anyway.

In that regard, Beowulf was chicken shit. If they were willing to go public, they wouldn't have had to rat on the SLN by the use of a black channel. Why black? I'll tell you why black. It sure isn't because that black was beautiful. It is because they knew full-well they were about to turn into rats. And they also knew full-well what happened to most of the unauthorized rats annoying the Mandarins/Gorilla over the centuries.


Joat42 wrote:Everyone tried to play by the book except the SLN and the Mandarins, and for some reason you want to blame Beowulf for that.

Again, the thread is not about blame. It is about karma.


All in all, no matter what illegal actions the SLN and the Mandarins did, according to you it's Beowulf's own fault for getting attacked or not acting earlier or differently. Should've, would've and could've is extremely easy in hindsight.

Someone else also made that shocking mistake. Name one thing the Mandarins and the SLN did thst even required hindsight. The two entities are as transparent as air. And they sure as hell are consistent. Requiring no hindsight atall. Common sense maybe.

Joat, I am not trying to dirty Beowulf. I like Beowulf. They simply made some wrong choices considering who they were married to. Each one of the Mandarins can substitute for Hitler. You don't do what Beowulf did and let Hitler find out about it.

But what the thread is about is. . .

If you do do to Hitler what Beowulf did to the Mandarins/Gorilla, ain't nobody gonna buy a single stock saying ya didn't know what was coming.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Joat42   » Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:51 pm

Joat42
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cthia wrote:
Joat42 wrote:All in all, no matter what illegal actions the SLN and the Mandarins did, according to you it's Beowulf's own fault for getting attacked or not acting earlier or differently. Should've, would've and could've is extremely easy in hindsight.

Someone else also made that shocking mistake. Name one thing the Mandarins and the SLN did thst even required hindsight. The two entities are as transparent as air. And they sure as hell are consistent. Requiring no hindsight atall. Common sense maybe.

Joat, I am not trying to dirty Beowulf. I like Beowulf. They simply made some wrong choices considering who they were married to. Each one of the Mandarins can substitute for Hitler. You don't do what Beowulf did and let Hitler find out about it.

But what the thread is about is. . .

If you do do to Hitler what Beowulf did to the Mandarins/Gorilla, ain't nobody gonna buy a single stock saying ya didn't know what was coming.

Uhm, it's you cthia that are debating in hindsight what Beowulf should've, would've and could've done. And you keep referring to what happened to Beowulf as karma. You usually have to do some pretty bad things to get hit with bad karma costing millions of lives. In essence, your usage of the word karma for this situation is the same as putting the blame squarely on Beowulf.

And comparing the Mandarins to Hitler - well chtia, that's so wrong on so many levels it boggles the mind. I don't think you understand what Hitler was all about.

And the point is, you started this thread by calling Beowulf bad and that they where treasonous and karma biting their ass was their own fault for separating themselves from the League because Beowulf didn't feel like being the Mandarins doormat any longer.

Please tell me what Beowulf should have done WITHOUT hindsight of what would happen?

From where I'm standing, this whole debate is about victim blaming Beowulf.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:54 pm

cthia
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I found out in High School that 30 ppl reading a story come away from it with thirty different takes. I said again and again that an English teacher of mine said that I have an uncommon ability to become the character. "It is refreshing, don't ever lose it."


So it doesn't surprise me that we all think differently.

But I am absolutely gob smacked to find out that at the beginning of the thread, I am the only one - during the maiden voyage of reading the story - who thought this about that scene with Tsang. . .

BEOWULF. YOU SURE GOT SOME BIG BRASS BALLS HONEY.

TAKE CARE THEY DON'T GET SQUISHED BY A CERTAIN GORILLA!


I sure as hell wouldn't want my testicles in Kong's testy hands. But that is exactly where Beowulf placed theirs.

Me eyes furled reading those scenes. Honestly, yours didn't? Dammit man! Lay off the coffee!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by tlb   » Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:37 pm

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Joat42 wrote:All in all, no matter what illegal actions the SLN and the Mandarins did, according to you it's Beowulf's own fault for getting attacked or not acting earlier or differently. Should've, would've and could've is extremely easy in hindsight.

cthia wrote:Someone else also made that shocking mistake. Name one thing the Mandarins and the SLN did thst even required hindsight. The two entities are as transparent as air. And they sure as hell are consistent. Requiring no hindsight atall. Common sense maybe.

Joat, I am not trying to dirty Beowulf. I like Beowulf. They simply made some wrong choices considering who they were married to. Each one of the Mandarins can substitute for Hitler. You don't do what Beowulf did and let Hitler find out about it.

But what the thread is about is. . .

If you do do to Hitler what Beowulf did to the Mandarins/Gorilla, ain't nobody gonna buy a single stock saying ya didn't know what was coming.

Joat42 wrote:Uhm, it's you cthia that are debating in hindsight what Beowulf should've, would've and could've done. And you keep referring to what happened to Beowulf as karma. You usually have to do some pretty bad things to get hit with bad karma costing millions of lives. In essence, your usage of the word karma for this situation is the same as putting the blame squarely on Beowulf.

And comparing the Mandarins to Hitler - well chtia, that's so wrong on so many levels it boggles the mind. I don't think you understand what Hitler was all about.

And the point is, you started this thread by calling Beowulf bad and that they where treasonous and karma biting their ass was their own fault for separating themselves from the League because Beowulf didn't feel like being the Mandarins doormat any longer.

Please tell me what Beowulf should have done WITHOUT hindsight of what would happen?

From where I'm standing, this whole debate is about victim blaming Beowulf.

I think many of the disagreements in this thread are the result of karma biting cthia for misusing the words "karma" and "treason" and the analogy of "marriage and divorce" (which is still is use).

As I now understand the point, which is obscured by those terms: Beowulf could have taken a different path, that might have avoided the mega deaths which have occurred (although the author did promise that fate months ago). In this alternate history Beowulf uses the public forum of the League Assembly to warn about Filetra and Raging Justice, while quietly getting Manticore to suppress the courier boat that was to trigger Tsang's transit into Manticore space. By doing that quietly then Tsang's forces would be saved without the Mandarins learning that Beowulf had a hand in preventing the transfer. Beowulf holds off on trying to secede until after the war crisis has passed.
Stated that way the plan seems reasonable, but it might fail when it becomes public knowledge that Beowulf has been rebuilding and rearming Manticore.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Fri Aug 31, 2018 6:06 pm

cthia
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"Butterflies. Sooo preeeetty. What happened?"

"You face palmed so hard you knocked yourself the phuck out."

Now I've got to explain karma and treason and that treason sure as heck begets some fatal ass karma. . . for anyone!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Fri Aug 31, 2018 6:12 pm

cthia
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Or

As something Pavel Young might have said, let's try and mount this horse from the other side. . .

What if Beowulf had a change of heart and didn't like the trap the RMN had so neatly set and decided to flip its allegiance back towards its own founding and somehow assisted the SLN? Now, I don't know what form that could have taken which would have resulted in a victory for the SLN, but I'm sure with Beowulf's assistance (who the RMN trust implicitly) the SLN could have cost the RMN a lot of lives. Would that have been traitorous of Beowulf?

No, not legally! Beowulf didn't legally owe the RMN anything. In fact, technically, their allegiance is supposed to be to its own founding. BUT! THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL that the RMN would not have felt it was traitorous, and proceeded to blow the living hell out of Beowulf - if the RMN enjoyed the same mindset as the SLN and its puppet masters!


Or


What if the US was about to bite the exact same bullet and had to do something just as morally bankrupt or fall to communism? Even without a formal declaration of war. If you're American, would you deny us a Hail Mary under the exact same circumstances? Or empathize with the treasonous asswipes who were supposed to be our ally? Sure you would.

But I ain't buying any of that stock, no matter what you say.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by tlb   » Fri Aug 31, 2018 6:48 pm

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cthia wrote:What if Beowulf had a change of heart and didn't like the trap the RMN had so neatly set and decided to flip its allegiance back towards its own founding and somehow assisted the SLN? Now, I don't know what form that could have taken that would have resulted in a victory for the SLN, but I'm sure with Beowulf's assistance (who the RMN trust implicitly) the SLN could have cost the RMN a lot of lives. Would that have been traitorous of Beowulf?

No, not legally! Beowulf didn't legally owe the RMN anything. In fact, technically, their allegiance is supposed to be to its own founding. BUT! THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL that the RMN would not have felt it was traitorous, and proceeded to blow the living hell out of Beowulf - if the RMN enjoyed the same mindset as the SLN and its puppet masters!

Here I thought you had done a good job of explaining your position on what Beowulf should have done based on reasonable expectations of what the League reactions would be. And you did not need to use "karma" nor "treason' to do that. So what you seem to be doing here is not defending your position; instead you are trying to defend the terms of your discourse.
We all agree that the Mandarins and SLN will try to punish Beowulf for the actions that they did take; but their acts were not treason and the promised retribution is not karma.
PS. The hypothetical that you present describes the situation with Erewhon during the High Ridge government; but Manticore did not regard it as treason (although High Ridge might have felt it applied) and did not try to blow them up.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:11 pm

cthia
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TFLYTSNBN wrote:All cogent points but you fail to appreciate just how rapidly the strategic situation and the balance of power evolved. Up until the BoM, the SKM was struggling to survive. Up until the deployment of Apollo, the qualitative advantage of the RMN was not yet adequate to overcome the quantative advantage of the SLN. Even after the BoM, the RMN was in no position to safeguard the SEM and take on the SLN. Only after the peace with the Republic of Haven was the RMN so utterly dominant over the SLN.

Only when the above evolution occurred was it was reasonably sensible for Beawulf to seceed from the SL. If the SEM was conquered, there was no way that Beawulf could stand against Haven.

Unfortunately; the situation after deployment of Apollo, the BoM, and the peace with Haven evolved with extreme rapidity. The battles with Bing, Crandlr and Fillarta occurred over how many months? The SLN was already in a shooting war the the RMN before Beawulf had an opportunity to seceed. Secession during war time was the only opportunity.


Actually FLY. The SLN wouldn't have been able to stand up against Haven either, because then it would have all of the SEM's tech. I'll give you that one anyway though, because it has merit and I can certainly agree that safety was in the hearts and on the minds of Beowulf when secession long ago may have entered into its head. Plus the fact that I'm sure Beowulf's parents didn't raise any idiots.

I also understand trying to sneak out of the house when the abusive husband gets in a fight with the new bf. He's preoccupied now.

But, I still find it ill advised to poke the gorilla in the eye on the way out the door. Karma may be as disliked in this thread as the Demon Murphy, but she will not be ignored.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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