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BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA

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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:02 pm

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n7axw wrote:I don't really disagree with Cthia about human nature. I am a preacher and I can wax eloquent on the subject myself.

But, isn't this exercizing a bit of tunnel vision? Not only do you have the Mandarins, St. Just and the Detweilers, you also have Eloise, Honor, Alfred and Allison, and yes, Elizabeth, who are commited to spending the energy of their lives in the service of others. Then there are lots of others who fall somewhere in the middle, sharing in the flaws of humanity as a whole, but still wanting to be decent people.

What it all amounts to is that even after the dark side of human nature, bottom line is that we are an incredibly complicated mix of both good and evil. And even the best of us mirror that in our hearts.

Don

-
Plus, while you can't entirely ignore the potential costs of standing up and doing the right thing sometimes people or countries reach a point where temporary safety isn't the most important thing and they take a stand despite the risk of injury or death.

Sometimes, painful as it is, things don't get better until some little guy stands up for his rights; and then in the cold light of day, before the whole world, gets utterly destroyed by the violent oppressive force denying those rights. That brutal public suppression of him and his rights can be what finally triggers the widespread backlash against that abuse; leading to it's correction.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:07 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
n7axw wrote:I don't really disagree with Cthia about human nature. I am a preacher and I can wax eloquent on the subject myself.

But, isn't this exercizing a bit of tunnel vision? Not only do you have the Mandarins, St. Just and the Detweilers, you also have Eloise, Honor, Alfred and Allison, and yes, Elizabeth, who are commited to spending the energy of their lives in the service of others. Then there are lots of others who fall somewhere in the middle, sharing in the flaws of humanity as a whole, but still wanting to be decent people.

What it all amounts to is that even after the dark side of human nature, bottom line is that we are an incredibly complicated mix of both good and evil. And even the best of us mirror that in our hearts.

Don

-
Plus, while you can't entirely ignore the potential costs of standing up and doing the right thing sometimes people or countries reach a point where temporary safety isn't the most important thing and they take a stand despite the risk of injury or death.

Sometimes, painful as it is, things don't get better until some little guy stands up for his rights; and then in the cold light of day, before the whole world, gets utterly destroyed by the violent oppressive force denying those rights. That brutal public suppression of him and his rights can be what finally triggers the widespread backlash against that abuse; leading to it's correction.


Kudos.

Hence, the "Me Too" movement trending now. And the "Me Too" movement I posted about upstream that Beowulf and the Harrington Plan hopes to foster.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:15 pm

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n7axw wrote:I don't really disagree with Cthia about human nature. I am a preacher and I can wax eloquent on the subject myself.

But, isn't this exercizing a bit of tunnel vision? Not only do you have the Mandarins, St. Just and the Detweilers, you also have Eloise, Honor, Alfred and Allison, and yes, Elizabeth, who are commited to spending the energy of their lives in the service of others. Then there are lots of others who fall somewhere in the middle, sharing in the flaws of humanity as a whole, but still wanting to be decent people.

What it all amounts to is that even after the dark side of human nature, bottom line is that we are an incredibly complicated mix of both good and evil. And even the best of us mirror that in our hearts.

Don

-


Well, not really tunnel vision, inasmuch as zeroing in on a specific set of circumstances which is the title of the thread.

I do agree however, that human nature isn't all bad. Being a Christian myself, I really must believe that. There are many instances in the Honorverse showcasing good. Especially in the entire culture of Grayson. Although initially it appeared I wasn't going to like that planet very much at all. Then there's Theisman, Pritchart, Shannon, even a few of the People's Commissioners. Mankind can be as good as it is bad and as bad as it is good.

To see the true colors of the Mandarins, you've got to think like criminals, wear rose colored glasses and peer through that tunnel.

Thanks for reminding me of the good in mankind. I needed that. Also for the info that you are a preacher. Nice.

There's a fine line between the good in us and the bad in us and the line isn't always straight or visible.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Roguevictory   » Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:56 pm

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cthia wrote:
Kudos.

Hence, the "Me Too" movement trending now. And the "Me Too" movement I posted about upstream that Beowulf and the Harrington Plan hopes to foster.


Ugh the me too movement. Otherwise known as the guilty until proven innocent movement which is the opposite of every idea of justice I hold dear. What would such a thing have to do with the Honorverse?
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by pappilon   » Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:48 pm

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cthia wrote:
Kudos.

Hence, the "Me Too" movement trending now. And the "Me Too" movement I posted about upstream that Beowulf and the Harrington Plan hopes to foster.


Roguevictory wrote: Ugh the me too movement. Otherwise known as the guilty until proven innocent movement which is the opposite of every idea of justice I hold dear. What would such a thing have to do with the Honorverse?
Bolding mine and mine alone

Where to start?! Seriously?(1) Office of Frontier Security. All those "scrupulously fair and honest (we swear") plebescites. (2) The Gendarmerie playing hammer to any nails stupid enough to protest the tender mercies of their transtellar corporate overlords. (Frontier fleet ready to drop KEWs on the heads of any nails smart enough to avoid the hammer of the Gendarmerie. (4) Yeah the transtellars: raping and pillaging entire star systems. Yes with the legal permission from the bullies FF the Gendarmerie, OFS, The Mandarins.

What recourse do they have besides being pounded into submission? Merely crying out into the wilderness. So some demogogue feeds them a line of BS offering them false promises of support by our superhero Underdog. Underdog finds out and without benefit of trials, merely vigilante justice the superhero's sidekick, one Aivars Terekhov kicks sand in the bully's face and the entire universe explodes in anger.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by pappilon   » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:03 pm

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The whole marriage thing sucks as an analogy. With 1500 willing participants, its more like Tinder (or whatever). Even the Church of Latter Day Saints would be appalled at even one of their bishops having 1500 wives.

And for Beowulf being the favorite, Timov won by default, not because she was favorite or nicest but because she was true t her values above all, thus making her the most honest.
Sorry, you donot -not ever- hold your favorite wife up to censure and ridicule by the rest of your harem. Not if you ever want to feel safe in bed with any of them ever again.

Would Beowulf have left if The Big Bad Manties weren't there? Maybe, probably not at that moment. But by the same token, if Crandall had succeeded at Spindle would the whole fiasco in the star chamber have happened? Are the fracture lines still thet? Were they there before the first Haven War? What is, is. you can't play the what if game. I mean, yeah, you can always engage in exercises in futility. You have to deal with the situation as it is now, not like you want or wish or hope it is.

Beowulf was dealt a hand, the Mandarins wanted to pre-empt them from casting a negative vote. Manticore was attacked by "assailant or assailants unknown." The Mandarins decide to take advantage of the situation. Beowulf somehow learns of it & warns Manticore and Haven. Beowulf could as well be setting up Manticore for a wave of invasions leaving them destroyed.

At some point moral outrage (killing children if you will) overrides everything else. Win or lose, GA or none, Beowulf is outta there. Whatever else happens in retaliation (of which there is no textev or more than musings several years old) happens.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:07 pm

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Roguevictory wrote:
cthia wrote:
Kudos.

Hence, the "Me Too" movement trending now. And the "Me Too" movement I posted about upstream that Beowulf and the Harrington Plan hopes to foster.


Ugh the me too movement. Otherwise known as the guilty until proven innocent movement which is the opposite of every idea of justice I hold dear. What would such a thing have to do with the Honorverse?


Detour.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:13 pm

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pappilon wrote:The whole marriage thing sucks as an analogy. With 1500 willing participants, its more like Tinder (or whatever). Even the Church of Latter Day Saints would be appalled at even one of their bishops having 1500 wives.

And for Beowulf being the favorite, Timov won by default, not because she was favorite or nicest but because she was true t her values above all, thus making her the most honest.
Sorry, you donot -not ever- hold your favorite wife up to censure and ridicule by the rest of your harem. Not if you ever want to feel safe in bed with any of them ever again.

Would Beowulf have left if The Big Bad Manties weren't there? Maybe, probably not at that moment. But by the same token, if Crandall had succeeded at Spindle would the whole fiasco in the star chamber have happened? Are the fracture lines still thet? Were they there before the first Haven War? What is, is. you can't play the what if game. I mean, yeah, you can always engage in exercises in futility. You have to deal with the situation as it is now, not like you want or wish or hope it is.

Beowulf was dealt a hand, the Mandarins wanted to pre-empt them from casting a negative vote. Manticore was attacked by "assailant or assailants unknown." The Mandarins decide to take advantage of the situation. Beowulf somehow learns of it & warns Manticore and Haven. Beowulf could as well be setting up Manticore for a wave of invasions leaving them destroyed.

At some point moral outrage (killing children if you will) overrides everything else. Win or lose, GA or none, Beowulf is outta there. Whatever else happens in retaliation (of which there is no textev or more than musings several years old) happens.


Don't hold so steadfast to "the letter of the analogy," but the "spirit of it." It is only meant to give directions to the right mindset to understand the human element. Without it, you can hardly understand the Mandarins & Beowulf.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:40 pm

cthia
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pappilon wrote:
cthia wrote:
Kudos.

Hence, the "Me Too" movement trending now. And the "Me Too" movement I posted about upstream that Beowulf and the Harrington Plan hopes to foster.


Roguevictory wrote: Ugh the me too movement. Otherwise known as the guilty until proven innocent movement which is the opposite of every idea of justice I hold dear. What would such a thing have to do with the Honorverse?
Bolding mine and mine alone

Where to start?! Seriously?(1) Office of Frontier Security. All those "scrupulously fair and honest (we swear") plebescites. (2) The Gendarmerie playing hammer to any nails stupid enough to protest the tender mercies of their transtellar corporate overlords. (Frontier fleet ready to drop KEWs on the heads of any nails smart enough to avoid the hammer of the Gendarmerie. (4) Yeah the transtellars: raping and pillaging entire star systems. Yes with the legal permission from the bullies FF the Gendarmerie, OFS, The Mandarins.

What recourse do they have besides being pounded into submission? Merely crying out into the wilderness. So some demogogue feeds them a line of BS offering them false promises of support by our superhero Underdog. Underdog finds out and without benefit of trials, merely vigilante justice the superhero's sidekick, one Aivars Terekhov kicks sand in the bully's face and the entire universe explodes in anger.


THANK YOU! I seriously didn't know where to start.

I only wish to add that the Harrington Plan is all about engendering the MeToo feeling all along the existing fracture lines. Beowulf is to be the first of many, remember? Or that 20M sacrifice will be all for naught.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by pappilon   » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:16 am

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Posts: 1051
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cthia wrote:
Kudos.

Hence, the "Me Too" movement trending now. And the "Me Too" movement I posted about upstream that Beowulf and the Harrington Plan hopes to foster.


Roguevictory wrote: Ugh the me too movement. Otherwise known as the guilty until proven innocent movement which is the opposite of every idea of justice I hold dear. What would such a thing have to do with the Honorverse?
Bolding mine and mine alone

pappilon wrote:Where to start?! Seriously?(1) Office of Frontier Security. All those "scrupulously fair and honest (we swear") plebescites. (2) The Gendarmerie playing hammer to any nails stupid enough to protest the tender mercies of their transtellar corporate overlords. (Frontier fleet ready to drop KEWs on the heads of any nails smart enough to avoid the hammer of the Gendarmerie. (4) Yeah the transtellars: raping and pillaging entire star systems. Yes with the legal permission from the bullies FF the Gendarmerie, OFS, The Mandarins.

What recourse do they have besides being pounded into submission? Merely crying out into the wilderness. So some demogogue feeds them a line of BS offering them false promises of support by our superhero Underdog. Underdog finds out and without benefit of trials, merely vigilante justice the superhero's sidekick, one Aivars Terekhov kicks sand in the bully's face and the entire universe explodes in anger.


cthia wrote:THANK YOU! I seriously didn't know where to start.

I only wish to add that the Harrington Plan is all about engendering the MeToo feeling all along the existing fracture lines. Beowulf is to be the first of many, remember? Or that 20M sacrifice will be all for naught.


I think somewhere in the 30s or 40s Katherine Hepburn exposed Louis B Mayer's casting couch and made it public. Just like OFS and their condoning of the raping and pillaging of the verge planets, it is common knowlege that certain studio executives, current US presidents, et al rape their way through their lives.

Now the silently complicit are geting their noses rubbed in it and al they are doing is what should never have been condoned in the first place. If people are losing their jobs for "alleged behavior" in the workplace, it is not the fault of #MeToo. dO not blame the "alleged" victims here.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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