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BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA

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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by tlb   » Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:29 pm

tlb
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cthia wrote:The Mandarins would love to call you as a prime witness.

co·a·li·tion

NOUN
an alliance for combined action, especially a temporary alliance of political parties forming a government or of states.


Beowulf was in the process of seceding. Their divorce papers were NOT finalized! They still had wifely duties to their old husband. And since it is obvious that they've been having a secret affair and rendezvous on the side in some shady hotel on Manticore... then Beowulf was bad. Very very bad. And the Mandarins charge them with infidelity.

As far as the League is concerned, the divorce was never going to be permitted to be final. Although if a coalition is a temporary alliance, then divorce is too strong a word.

The League can attempt whatever they want; perhaps convinced that they are right, or more likely that self-preservation requires it. But even 20 million dead does not kill the planet and Beowulf has powerful friends who have swatted the SLN several times. The League is not making the wisest decision, as I expect you know. So what is the point?
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:35 pm

cthia
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cthia wrote:
Bluesqueak wrote:Beowulf didn't commit treason when they alerted Manticore to a sneak attack by the League - because ordering Filareta's sneak attack was itself an act of treason against the League's Constitution.

It comes under the enemies, domestic clause.


Like my Driver's Ed teacher once taught us...

It doesn't matter who is right or who is wrong. Dead right or dead wrong, Beowulf is still dead. So drive for the other idiots on the highway as well. Beowulf should have handled it differently so as not to make the gorilla feel used, ratted out and set up.

If you are going to poke and prod the hornet's nest with a stick while you're running away, then accept your punishment.
Vince wrote:If the SLN takes the point that dead right or dead wrong, Beowulf is to be dead, then they had damn well better make sure that 1) Beowulf, and all of its allies, both in and out of the Solarian League, are completely, totally, utterly dead and 2) they have the capability to accomplish that. Because if they don't, they will run head-on into a historically effective strategy commonly known as tit-for-tat.

Or to put it another way:
ON WAR by General Carl von Clausewitz wrote:We therefore repeat our proposition, that War is an act of violence pushed to its utmost bounds; as one side dictates the law to the other, there arises a sort of reciprocal action, which logically must lead to an extreme.

Or:
Primacy of ‘Culture’ over War in a Modern World? John Keegan's Critique Demands a Sophisticated Interpretation of Clausewitz by Andreas Herberg-Rothe wrote: War is an act of force and there is no logical limit to the application of that force, because violence is exceeding the limits itself, little by little.

Taken to logical ends, if the Solarian League Navy commits and Epsilon Eridani Edict violation against the Beowulf, they must expect retaliation in both greater degree and kind. And the Grand Alliance has the advantages of interior lines of communication inside the Solarian League, more qualitatively capable naval forces as well as more combat experienced naval forces--especially in missile combat, plus true multi-drive missiles. All of which the SLN does not have, and doesn't know it lacks.

It is the Solarian League Navy, if they attempt to attack Beowulf, will be poking the hornet's nest--and if Grand Alliance forces are present--they will not be using a stick, but their bare heads to do the poking with--and they haven't a proper appreciation of how truly outclassed they are. At best, only a very, very few SLN officers have the beginnings of a glimmer of a clue of how bad a situation they are in if they attempt hostilities.

The eventual foreseeable outcome, should the SLN go down the path of Epsilon Eridani Edict violations, will be a dozen or so MDMs hitting each and every one of the League planets (which have no capability of dodging) at relativistic velocities. That will put an end to the League and its Navy's capability to wage war, because the League will be, as your Driver's Ed instructor put it you, in the end, be dead.

cthia wrote:Yes, the GA can wreak havoc on the League planets and Old Earth. The GA can make the SLN pay for any indiscretions to Beowulf. But none of it matters because...

BEOWULF WILL STILL BE DEAD!

At least 20M of them. Little consolation it is to the many dead, that they are avenged.


Heeding my Driver's Ed teacher's comment that "Dead right, dead wrong, you are still dead" is something Beowulf should have heeded. Not the League (Mandarins). This thread is discussing Beowulf's "just dessert" and the fact that they asked for it, not the Mandarins.
ldwechsler wrote:They hardly asked for it. And note that 20 million dead is less than one percent of Beowulf's population. All the survivors will really want to see the Mandarins dead.

Second, we know from textev that at least recently Beowulf has opposed some of the imperialism. Of course, they were drowned out by a real lot of go-along planets. Sort of like the US being part of the UN when it praises assorted terrorist regimes.

But under the League constitution they have the right to leave. It does not say in the Constitution that the Mandarins have the right to destroy them for wanting to leave.

If they do attack and really savage Beowulf, not only with the GA be furious but you might recall there are a lot of planets who have folks who intermarried with the Beowulfians.

And once a planet has been shattered, few targets will be off the table. And a lot of rich people will be aware that their own fortunes could be destroyed.

That will shake them up.

As for "treason," there is no such thing in this group. The League is an association, in theory a voluntary association, of planets. There is a way to leave as part of the Constitution.You can't commit treason against the United Nations.

Also, there has been no voting on the imperialism. This is all bureaucracy now. And the Beowulfians have not been pleased with those policies for a while.
Pardon my bold.

Yea, they kinda did. Again, Beowulf is no stranger to the ways of the Mandarins or their thinking. They knew exactly what their actions would bring.* The only reason Beowulf has the balls to leave now, is because of their newly found boyfriend who's on steroids.

You are still talking about the Constitution and getting caught up in the letter of the law. None of that matters to the Mandarins. To them, it is all simply the inconvenience of niggling little details. How many planets have the League browbeat over the centuries without benefit of the League's Assembly? The Assembly wasn't present when FF was softening all of them up.

* However, many of Beowulf's citizens who opposed the secession may be able to charge their government with second degree murder. They knew full well there would be 800# repercussions. The manner in which they handled their affair with Manticore was irresponsible. The law can prosecute your deranged husband for killing you for wanting to leave, and for all of the things that have become obvious to him about the affair. But prosecution of the husband won't raise the wife from the dead. She has a responsibility to herself, to conduct the new affair properly, with respect to the asshole, even if he does not deserve it. So she won't get herself killed! The human element. Scorned affairs.

Beowulf is guilty of what many married spouses are guilty of. Upon finding a new suitor, staying out of bed until the papers are finalized. And some of those spouses will demand that those wifely duties still be carried out! Even against her will! Even if he has to take what is his right. That is how a bully, and not a gentleman, thinks. We all know which one the League is.

Beowulf knew too.


Labored fiercely to correct attributes.

.
Last edited by cthia on Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:19 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:42 pm

cthia
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cthia wrote:The Mandarins would love to call you as a prime witness.

co·a·li·tion

NOUN
an alliance for combined action, especially a temporary alliance of political parties forming a government or of states.


Beowulf was in the process of seceding. Their divorce papers were NOT finalized! They still had wifely duties to their old husband. And since it is obvious that they've been having a secret affair and rendezvous on the side in some shady hotel on Manticore... then Beowulf was bad. Very very bad. And the Mandarins charge them with infidelity.
tlb wrote:As far as the League is concerned, the divorce was never going to be permitted to be final. Although if a coalition is a temporary alliance, then divorce is too strong a word.

The League can attempt whatever they want; perhaps convinced that they are right, or more likely that self-preservation requires it. But even 20 million dead does not kill the planet and Beowulf has powerful friends who have swatted the SLN several times. The League is not making the wisest decision, as I expect you know. So what is the point?


If that question is directed at me, see the title of the thread.

If it is a rhetorical question on the League's behalf, Beowulf was very very bad.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Joat42   » Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:51 pm

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cthia wrote:Beowulf was in the process of seceding. Their divorce papers were NOT finalized! They still had wifely duties to their old husband. And since it is obvious that they've been having a secret affair and rendezvous on the side in some shady hotel on Manticore... then Beowulf was bad. Very very bad. And the Mandarins charge them with infidelity.

When Beowulf told Manticore and Haven about the SLN "sneak attack" or telling the SLN TF commander that attacking Manticore is a very, very bad idea and they wont have a part in it - there where no war declared. Beowulf hadn't said anything about seceding at that point. The treasonous party in this instance was the SLN units planning an illegal attack on a sovereign star nation without a declaration of war from the League members.

And the accusation that Beowulf was treasonous is pure political bullshit from the Mandarins so they can punish Beowulf for trying to secede. Anyone involved in such an action to stop someone from seceding is violating the League constitution.

As per rfc, excerpt from Baens Bar, Aug22, 2006:
runsforcelery wrote:Membership in the League (except for those planets which are essentially captive provinces under OFS rule) is entirely voluntary. There is a specific mechanism for star systems to leave the League, and there is no mechanism for compelling star systems to remain in the League. In fact, compelling star system to remain in the League would represent clear violation of the League constitution (such as it is, and what there is of it).


So I can't really understand what your point is since it has no connection to the facts. Unless you are arguing from the standpoint of the Mandarins which have no clue what's really going on.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:55 pm

cthia
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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:There was no declaration of war.



But.

Operation Raging Justice was the SLN's declaration of survival. They were trying to preempt the situation they're in now. A quick, unexpected thrust. And who's to say it wouldn't have worked? Had it not been for Beowulf!
Given the Manticore system defenses!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

A few hundred obsolete SDs dropping in at the hyper limit would have been dead meat to all the MDM pods around Sphinx and Manticore even if 8th fleet wasn't still hanging around assigned as Home Fleet.

Raging Justice had no chance of taking over Manticore and only limited chances of causing serious harm before dying. What lack of notice would have meant was the Manticore wouldn't have been able to put on the show of force that almost succeeded in forcing their surrender without firing a shot and which still kept their destruction from being total. If rushed they may not have had time to temper their system defense response and would have to err on the side of making sure the large number of ships couldn't be a continued threat.


:lol: Gotta laugh with ya on that one.

But.

From the arrogant Sollies POV, things will look differently. In fact, I don't know why the League aren't painting Beowulf as traitors. And simultaneously stating the reason for Filareta's defeat was because of inside intel meted out by Beowulf. One of the founders!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:07 pm

cthia
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Dca wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but Alice's action preventing Tsang from transiting the Beowulf wormhole came ar the moment of Filaretas attack, which was WAY after the black channel leak. Which does not speak to the troll of "TREASON!" Treason is about aid to enemies, which is still missing that darned declaration of war. I'm confident that won't be a problem for Tyrone Reid and company, but so what? The whole concept of treason implies a body worthy of respect and adherence, which the SL is (mostly) sorely lacking.


How did Beowulf not aid? And how are the Manties not League enemies?

Distance yourself as a reader who hates all things Mandarin. Beowulf was complicit.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:17 pm

cthia
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Vince wrote:
cthia wrote:On any given day the SLN would have lost to the RMN. In 1001 straight battles they would have found 1001 Ways To Die. But on one particular day, they might have won. We can't know for certain if they couldn't have defeated the RMN on that day. We don't know what hand the meddling Demon Murphy might have dealt the RMN. A large chunk of Home Fleet off exercising. A mistake transiting too large a force through the junction from Manticore to Beowulf, shutting the terminus down leaving Filareta with a piece of cake. The Salamander away. Yatta yatta yatta. We don't really know. And because of Beowulf we never will.

At any rate, the innocent officers in the SLN were simply followers orders. They already had little chance to succeed. Now they were going to die for certain because someone on their own team "ratted them out."

It should be noted that blind obedience to orders, when those orders are illegal, is not a legal defense.

In the United States armed forces, if you carry out an illegal order, you can be court-martialed and convicted for doing so.

It was also established, at the Nuremberg Trials, that obedience to orders, when those orders are illegal, is not a legal defense.


I trust that it is clear now that I was referring to the maggots serving under the Byngs and Crandalls and Filaretas. It was bad enough the predicament they were in and none of them wanted to die. They had little to no chance as it was to make it back home to their families. With one of the founders turning over the play book, they definitely had NO chance.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Joat42   » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:36 pm

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cthia wrote:
Dca wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but Alice's action preventing Tsang from transiting the Beowulf wormhole came ar the moment of Filaretas attack, which was WAY after the black channel leak. Which does not speak to the troll of "TREASON!" Treason is about aid to enemies, which is still missing that darned declaration of war. I'm confident that won't be a problem for Tyrone Reid and company, but so what? The whole concept of treason implies a body worthy of respect and adherence, which the SL is (mostly) sorely lacking.


How did Beowulf not aid? And how are the Manties not League enemies?

Distance yourself as a reader who hates all things Mandarin. Beowulf was complicit.

Explain in detail how Beowulf was complicit, because so far you haven't managed to produce one coherent argument why they where complicit.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by pappilon   » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:28 pm

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]
cthia wrote:
HHow did Beowulf not aid? And how are the Manties not League enemies?

Distance yourself as a reader who hates all things Mandarin. Beowulf was complicit.


[quote="Joat42"Explain in detail how Beowulf was complicit, because so far you haven't managed to produce one coherent argument why they where complicit.[/quote]

Yes, they are guilty of notifying an ally of theirs with whom there have been ...incidents. There is no IMMANENT (as in warships passing through Beowulf/Manticore's WHJ headed for Earth. At this point there ios no declaration of war on any side. Immanent invasion does not apply. Sorry just legality. And for some law is law. And Constitution, no matter how dead or inconvenient is still the law above all other laws.

About divorce, there's a hole in the fence between you and your neighbor, you've known about it for years, you know your wife's been "popping over" to visit the neighbor since the hole was discovered. And NOW you act all angry and enraged that "there's something awfuwwwy scwewy going on awound here." Now that she's filing for divorce?
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The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by filbert   » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:52 pm

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pappilon wrote:About divorce, there's a hole in the fence between you and your neighbor, you've known about it for years, you know your wife's been "popping over" to visit the neighbor since the hole was discovered. And NOW you act all angry and enraged that "there's something awfuwwwy scwewy going on awound here." Now that she's filing for divorce?

Yes, but per the RFC quote just upthread, there WAS NO MARRIAGE. Beowulf was if anything just cohabiting the Solarian League. "Shacking up" as it were.

Mr. Solarian The Stud: "Hey, baby Beowulf, hows about you and me beat the crap out of this dude Manticore who's been strutting around lately?"

Ms. Beowulf: "Um, gee, Studly Solly my honey, that doesn't seem like a good idea to me."

Mr. Solarian: "You're my wife, you owe me!"

Ms. Beowulf: "Actually, Sol, we're just living together, we never actually got married. I can leave any time I want to, and I think I'll start packing."

Mr. Solarian: "Bitch! If you won't help me kill Manticore, I'LL KILL YOU!!!!"

Ms. Beowulf: "Oh, did I mention that Mr. Manticore has been teaching me self-defense? HI-KEEBA!"

Yeah, the disagreement is obviously TOTALLY Miss Beowulf's fault. I can see how a totally, completely, 100% unbiased, reasonable person could see it from Mr. Solarian's point of view.

Does the phrase "blame the victim" ring a bell with anyone?
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