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BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA

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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by pappilon   » Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:10 pm

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filbert wrote:Seems to me that the legal situation of Beowulf changed drastically with Manticore's (and, I assume, Haven's) formal declaration of war on the Solarian League.

Personally, I find all the spin-doctoring of events prior to the GL's declaration of war on the SL to be futile and tedious.

In the eyes of the Mandarins, Beowulf was obviously treasonous even before Filereta's disaster. The Mandarins were equally treasonous to the Beowulf Board of Directors and most of its population. Yawn.

But with Manticore's declaration of war on the SL, Beowulf is now in an exceedingly tenuous situation legally . . . I think it's an easy argument that their continued support of Manticore after the Manties' declaration of war constitutes a de-facto secession (call it treason if you're wearing Solarian-League-colored glasses) from the SL.


One thing I think all can agree on is that we need that EARC and we need it now!



Bolding mine.

Thank you for the concise clarification. I would remind you that the events bolded are not separate incidents but rather the continuing unwinding of the effort by the Mandarins to pre-emptively defang Beowulf in the parlaiment (or whatever they call it).
The mandarins called for the vote, Beowulf announced that they were seceding. They warned Manticore and also notified Haven of the impending attack. THEN they refused to allow the SLN to use the junction to make a second invasion of Manticore. So now its merely in for a penny, in for a Euro. The Mandarins started it, it blew up in their faces, now they're doubling down on a busted hand.

Spin it any way you want, it is a gross misuse of language to call it treason. There still has not been that acual vote on the questiion of secession. Because it hasn't happened, The SL cannot6 accuse Beowulf of treason (based on published textev) for notifying Manticore of the invasion because they have not yet discovered who informed on them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:57 pm

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pappilon wrote:
filbert wrote:Snip

But with Manticore's declaration of war on the SL, Beowulf is now in an exceedingly tenuous situation legally . . . I think it's an easy argument that their continued support of Manticore after the Manties' declaration of war constitutes a de-facto secession (call it treason if you're wearing Solarian-League-colored glasses) from the SL.[/b]

One thing I think all can agree on is that we need that EARC and we need it now!



Bolding mine.

Thank you for the concise clarification. I would remind you that the events bolded are not separate incidents but rather the continuing unwinding of the effort by the Mandarins to pre-emptively defang Beowulf in the parlaiment (or whatever they call it).
The mandarins called for the vote, Beowulf announced that they were seceding. They warned Manticore and also notified Haven of the impending attack. THEN they refused to allow the SLN to use the junction to make a second invasion of Manticore. So now its merely in for a penny, in for a Euro. The Mandarins started it, it blew up in their faces, now they're doubling down on a busted hand.

Spin it any way you want, it is a gross misuse of language to call it treason. There still has not been that acual vote on the questiion of secession. Because it hasn't happened, The SL cannot6 accuse Beowulf of treason (based on published textev) for notifying Manticore of the invasion because they have not yet discovered who informed on them.


Nicely put; but your timeline is a bit off. Spindle, happened. Mandarins agreed to dispatch Filareta, already in Tasmania. Beowulf notified Manticore and Haven. Then the Mandarins dispatched Simpson to Beowulf. Beowulf (as predicted by Kolokoltsov) blows them off for the stupidity of the idea; Tsang is dispatched some weeks later; Beowulf blows off her claims to tell them what to do also; then the battle, and only then the witch hunt. And only after 3/4 of the assembly vote to "investigate" the incident, does Beowulf put its referendum for secession in motion. If the Assembly hadn't lined up like lemmings to suck up to the burearocrats, on what are quite obviously diversionary political posturing, Beowulf wouldn't be seceding. As it is, some 500 member systems voted against the Mandarins. . .

A promising start. And, potential trade partners, for the GA.

Rob
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Eagleeye   » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:43 pm

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Armed Neo-Bob wrote:
A promising start. And, potential trade partners, for the GA.

Rob


Or - potential targets for Operation Buccaneer ...
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by ldwechsler   » Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:45 am

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Eagleeye wrote:
Armed Neo-Bob wrote:
A promising start. And, potential trade partners, for the GA.

Rob


Or - potential targets for Operation Buccaneer ...



Keep in mind that if the League attacks a lot of its own planets, or former ones, they are not damaging Manticore or Haven. Those nations can do what they want and send their fleets, far more powerful, to damage the really wealthy corporate worlds.

I would bet they know pretty much which planets produce those raiders. Destroy those orbital factories...giving time to let people get off. Then warn the planets that "We'll be back."

Rebuilding takes a lot of time. Just schedule yearly visits and it is likely that there will be no raiders built there.

Also, find out where the raiders leave their prisoners and get resupplied. Those planets can be damaged greatly.

This reminds me of the war between Peter the Great of Russia and Augustus the Strong, Elector of Saxony who was also King of Poland. Russian armies smashed Poland several times and Augustus stood firm. When they came for Saxony, the war ended quickly.

Damaging former members not only won't bother the GA that much but will pretty much cancel out any chance that those planets would ever return.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:15 pm

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What I don't get, is on the one hand everybody talks about the "legality" of Beowulf to leave the League. Conversely, you also speak of the "illegality" of the League acting like there's a war, without no formal Declaration of War.

On the other hand, you bastardize John Harrington's quote, saying history is to be written by the more powerful combatant who can plagiarize without recompense. But then you fail to allow that same opportunity and concept to fall upon the heads of the League. The League was trying to determine history and earn the right to write that history from their POV. Why shouldn't the Mandarins have gone for a head cutting attack if they saw an opening? They knew what their long term expansionistic goals were anyway. Certainly if they had been successful, adding the MWJ to the League's assets would have been gargantuan! And every Old Earth citizen in the street would have been celebrating.

The League was just acting out as if they were the huge John Harrington fans and bastardizers that they are. They've been bastardizing Harrington's quote for centuries. Did Beowulf think they'd want to stop just because they married quite a few of them?

"Puhlease!" says the arrogant Solly admiral!

Beowulf has been a part of the bullying for centuries inasmuch as they were aware of it. I commend them for wanting to leave the League. But they waited too long. They needed to get out before the gorilla dragged them down with them. They failed in that regard. Beowulf should have gotten out long before the League got itself into a war it couldn't win. As it stands, Beowulf is a day late and a war short.



Note:
When I speak of the League, oftentimes I am referencing the Mandarins. The Mandarins are the League, as far as who is running it and who controls the gorilla's strings. As far as the Mandarins are concerned, for centuries.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Theemile   » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:23 pm

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cthia wrote:What I don't get, is on the one hand everybody talks about the "legality" of Beowulf to leave the League. Conversely, you also speak of the "illegality" of the League acting like there's a war, without no formal Declaration of War.

On the other hand, you bastardize John Harrington's quote, saying history is to be written by the more powerful combatant who can plagiarize without recompense. But then you fail to allow that same opportunity and concept to fall upon the heads of the League. The League was trying to determine history and earn the right to write that history from their POV. Why shouldn't the Mandarins have gone for a head cutting attack if they saw an opening? They knew what their long term expansionistic goals were anyway. Certainly if they had been successful, adding the MWJ to the League's assets would have been gargantuan! And every Old Earth citizen in the street would have been celebrating.

The League was just acting out as if they were the huge John Harrington fans and bastardizers that they are. They've been bastardizing Harrington's quote for centuries. Did Beowulf think they'd want to stop just because they married quite a few of them?

"Puhlease!" says the arrogant Solly admiral!

Beowulf has been a part of the bullying for centuries inasmuch as they were aware of it. I commend them for wanting to leave the League. But they waited too long. They needed to get out before the gorilla dragged them down with them. They failed in that regard. Beowulf should have gotten out long before the League got itself into a war it couldn't win. As it stands, Beowulf is a day late and a war short.



Note:
When I speak of the League, oftentimes I am referencing the Mandarins. The Mandarins are the League, as far as who is running it and who controls the gorilla's strings. As far as the Mandarins are concerned, for centuries.



The League was originally set up as a voluntary coalition of worlds. If memory serves, David said there is verbiage in the league constitution about planets Brexiting.

The timing might be inopportune, but it is their right to do so.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:27 pm

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cthia wrote:
Bluesqueak wrote:Beowulf didn't commit treason when they alerted Manticore to a sneak attack by the League - because ordering Filareta's sneak attack was itself an act of treason against the League's Constitution.

It comes under the enemies, domestic clause.


Like my Driver's Ed teacher once taught us...

It doesn't matter who is right or who is wrong. Dead right or dead wrong, Beowulf is still dead. So drive for the other idiots on the highway as well. Beowulf should have handled it differently so as not to make the gorilla feel used, ratted out and set up.

If you are going to poke and prod the hornet's nest with a stick while you're running away, then accept your punishment.

Vince wrote:If the SLN takes the point that dead right or dead wrong, Beowulf is to be dead, then they had damn well better make sure that 1) Beowulf, and all of its allies, both in and out of the Solarian League, are completely, totally, utterly dead and 2) they have the capability to accomplish that. Because if they don't, they will run head-on into a historically effective strategy commonly known as tit-for-tat.

Or to put it another way:
ON WAR by General Carl von Clausewitz wrote:We therefore repeat our proposition, that War is an act of violence pushed to its utmost bounds; as one side dictates the law to the other, there arises a sort of reciprocal action, which logically must lead to an extreme.

Or:
Primacy of ‘Culture’ over War in a Modern World? John Keegan's Critique Demands a Sophisticated Interpretation of Clausewitz by Andreas Herberg-Rothe wrote: War is an act of force and there is no logical limit to the application of that force, because violence is exceeding the limits itself, little by little.
Taken to logical ends, if the Solarian League Navy commits and Epsilon Eridani Edict violation against the Beowulf, they must expect retaliation in both greater degree and kind. And the Grand Alliance has the advantages of interior lines of communication inside the Solarian League, more qualitatively capable naval forces as well as more combat experienced naval forces--especially in missile combat, plus true multi-drive missiles. All of which the SLN does not have, and doesn't know it lacks.

It is the Solarian League Navy, if they attempt to attack Beowulf, will be poking the hornet's nest--and if Grand Alliance forces are present--they will not be using a stick, but their bare heads to do the poking with--and they haven't a proper appreciation of how truly outclassed they are. At best, only a very, very few SLN officers have the beginnings of a glimmer of a clue of how bad a situation they are in if they attempt hostilities.

The eventual foreseeable outcome, should the SLN go down the path of Epsilon Eridani Edict violations, will be a dozen or so MDMs hitting each and every one of the League planets (which have no capability of dodging) at relativistic velocities. That will put an end to the League and its Navy's capability to wage war, because the League will be, as your Driver's Ed instructor put it you, in the end, be dead.


Yes, the GA can wreak havoc on the League planets and Old Earth. The GA can make the SLN pay for any indiscretions to Beowulf. But none of it matters because...

BEOWULF WILL STILL BE DEAD!

At least 20M of them. Little consolation it is to the many dead, that they are avenged.


Heeding my Driver's Ed teacher's comment that "Dead right, dead wrong, you are still dead" is something Beowulf should have heeded. Not the League (Mandarins). This thread is discussing Beowulf's "just dessert" and the fact that they asked for it, not the Mandarins.


Very late edit to clean up attributes.

.
Last edited by cthia on Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:37 pm

cthia
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Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:What I don't get, is on the one hand everybody talks about the "legality" of Beowulf to leave the League. Conversely, you also speak of the "illegality" of the League acting like there's a war, without no formal Declaration of War.

On the other hand, you bastardize John Harrington's quote, saying history is to be written by the more powerful combatant who can plagiarize without recompense. But then you fail to allow that same opportunity and concept to fall upon the heads of the League. The League was trying to determine history and earn the right to write that history from their POV. Why shouldn't the Mandarins have gone for a head cutting attack if they saw an opening? They knew what their long term expansionistic goals were anyway. Certainly if they had been successful, adding the MWJ to the League's assets would have been gargantuan! And every Old Earth citizen in the street would have been celebrating.

The League was just acting out as if they were the huge John Harrington fans and bastardizers that they are. They've been bastardizing Harrington's quote for centuries. Did Beowulf think they'd want to stop just because they married quite a few of them?

"Puhlease!" says the arrogant Solly admiral!

Beowulf has been a part of the bullying for centuries inasmuch as they were aware of it. I commend them for wanting to leave the League. But they waited too long. They needed to get out before the gorilla dragged them down with them. They failed in that regard. Beowulf should have gotten out long before the League got itself into a war it couldn't win. As it stands, Beowulf is a day late and a war short.



Note:
When I speak of the League, oftentimes I am referencing the Mandarins. The Mandarins are the League, as far as who is running it and who controls the gorilla's strings. As far as the Mandarins are concerned, for centuries.



The League was originally set up as a voluntary coalition of worlds. If memory serves, David said there is verbiage in the league constitution about planets Brexiting.

The timing might be inopportune, but it is their right to do so.


Indeed it is. But it is NOT their right to commit treason. Remove your prejudices as a reader. In light that someone reminded me that Beowulf was a founder, how in the 800# scheme of things did the Mandarins, and the League, did the relationship between the League and Beowulf not have been implied that they won't commit acts of treason?

How many times in the League's history of subjugating planets did Beowulf become a conscientious objector and cost lives? It would have been treasonous in the eyes of the League then, it is treasonous in the eyes of the League now. Simply because Beowulf has a fondness for the current enemy does not change their implied responsibilities to the League.

They were a founding government for goodness sakes! Turning treasonous actions upon that foundation.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by ldwechsler   » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:45 pm

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cthia wrote:
Bluesqueak wrote:Beowulf didn't commit treason when they alerted Manticore to a sneak attack by the League - because ordering Filareta's sneak attack was itself an act of treason against the League's Constitution.

It comes under the enemies, domestic clause.


Like my Driver's Ed teacher once taught us...

It doesn't matter who is right or who is wrong. Dead right or dead wrong, Beowulf is still dead. So drive for the other idiots on the highway as well. Beowulf should have handled it differently so as not to make the gorilla feel used, ratted out and set up.

If you are going to poke and prod the hornet's nest with a stick while you're running away, then accept your punishment.

If the SLN takes the point that dead right or dead wrong, Beowulf is to be dead, then they had damn well better make sure that 1) Beowulf, and all of its allies, both in and out of the Solarian League, are completely, totally, utterly dead and 2) they have the capability to accomplish that. Because if they don't, they will run head-on into a historically effective strategy commonly known as tit-for-tat.

Or to put it another way:
ON WAR by General Carl von Clausewitz wrote:We therefore repeat our proposition, that War is an act of violence pushed to its utmost bounds; as one side dictates the law to the other, there arises a sort of reciprocal action, which logically must lead to an extreme.

Or:
Primacy of ‘Culture’ over War in a Modern World? John Keegan's Critique Demands a Sophisticated Interpretation of Clausewitz by Andreas Herberg-Rothe wrote: War is an act of force and there is no logical limit to the application of that force, because violence is exceeding the limits itself, little by little.
Vince wrote:Taken to logical ends, if the Solarian League Navy commits and Epsilon Eridani Edict violation against the Beowulf, they must expect retaliation in both greater degree and kind. And the Grand Alliance has the advantages of interior lines of communication inside the Solarian League, more qualitatively capable naval forces as well as more combat experienced naval forces--especially in missile combat, plus true multi-drive missiles. All of which the SLN does not have, and doesn't know it lacks.

It is the Solarian League Navy, if they attempt to attack Beowulf, will be poking the hornet's nest--and if Grand Alliance forces are present--they will not be using a stick, but their bare heads to do the poking with--and they haven't a proper appreciation of how truly outclassed they are. At best, only a very, very few SLN officers have the beginnings of a glimmer of a clue of how bad a situation they are in if they attempt hostilities.

The eventual foreseeable outcome, should the SLN go down the path of Epsilon Eridani Edict violations, will be a dozen or so MDMs hitting each and every one of the League planets (which have no capability of dodging) at relativistic velocities. That will put an end to the League and its Navy's capability to wage war, because the League will be, as your Driver's Ed instructor put it you, in the end, be dead.


Yes, the GA can wreak havoc on the League planets and Old Earth. The GA can make the SLN pay for any indiscretions to Beowulf. But none of it matters because...

BEOWULF WILL STILL BE DEAD!

At least 20M of them. Little consolation it is to the many dead, that they are avenged.


Heeding my Driver's Ed teacher's comment that "Dead right, dead wrong, you are still dead" is something Beowulf should have heeded. Not the League (Mandarins). This thread is discussing Beowulf's "just dessert" and the fact that they asked for it, not the Mandarins.[/quote]


They hardly asked for it. And note that 20 million dead is less than one percent of Beowulf's population. All the survivors will really want to see the Mandarins dead.

Second, we know from textev that at least recently Beowulf has opposed some of the imperialism. Of course, they were drowned out by a real lot of go-along planets. Sort of like the US being part of the UN when it praises assorted terrorist regimes.

But under the League constitution they have the right to leave. It does not say in the Constitution that the Mandarins have the right to destroy them for wanting to leave.

If they do attack and really savage Beowulf, not only with the GA be furious but you might recall there are a lot of planets who have folks who intermarried with the Beowulfians.

And once a planet has been shattered, few targets will be off the table. And a lot of rich people will be aware that their own fortunes could be destroyed.

That will shake them up.

As for "treason," there is no such thing in this group. The League is an association, in theory a voluntary association, of planets. There is a way to leave as part of the Constitution.You can't commit treason against the United Nations.

Also, there has been no voting on the imperialism. This is all bureaucracy now. And the Beowulfians have not been pleased with those policies for a while.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:53 pm

cthia
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Posts: 11706
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Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:What I don't get, is on the one hand everybody talks about the "legality" of Beowulf to leave the League. Conversely, you also speak of the "illegality" of the League acting like there's a war, without no formal Declaration of War.

On the other hand, you bastardize John Harrington's quote, saying history is to be written by the more powerful combatant who can plagiarize without recompense. But then you fail to allow that same opportunity and concept to fall upon the heads of the League. The League was trying to determine history and earn the right to write that history from their POV. Why shouldn't the Mandarins have gone for a head cutting attack if they saw an opening? They knew what their long term expansionistic goals were anyway. Certainly if they had been successful, adding the MWJ to the League's assets would have been gargantuan! And every Old Earth citizen in the street would have been celebrating.

The League was just acting out as if they were the huge John Harrington fans and bastardizers that they are. They've been bastardizing Harrington's quote for centuries. Did Beowulf think they'd want to stop just because they married quite a few of them?

"Puhlease!" says the arrogant Solly admiral!

Beowulf has been a part of the bullying for centuries inasmuch as they were aware of it. I commend them for wanting to leave the League. But they waited too long. They needed to get out before the gorilla dragged them down with them. They failed in that regard. Beowulf should have gotten out long before the League got itself into a war it couldn't win. As it stands, Beowulf is a day late and a war short.



Note:
When I speak of the League, oftentimes I am referencing the Mandarins. The Mandarins are the League, as far as who is running it and who controls the gorilla's strings. As far as the Mandarins are concerned, for centuries.



The League was originally set up as a voluntary coalition of worlds. If memory serves, David said there is verbiage in the league constitution about planets Brexiting.

The timing might be inopportune, but it is their right to do so.


The Mandarins would love to call you as a prime witness.

co·a·li·tion
[ˌkōəˈliSH(ə)n]

NOUN
an alliance for combined action, especially a temporary alliance of political parties forming a government or of states.


Beowulf was in the process of seceding. Their divorce papers were NOT finalized! They still had wifely duties to their old husband. And since it is obvious that they've been having a secret affair and rendezvous on the side in some shady hotel on Manticore... then Beowulf was bad. Very very bad. And the Mandarins charge them with infidelity.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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