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BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA

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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:55 pm

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cthia wrote:Beowulf knows the Kama Sutra well. They like being in untenable positions that can ph**k them. Well, guess what, Beowulf should have checked with the Health Department before sleeping with the enemy.



Cthia, what I don't get is that you are a smart guy. And I don't mean to come off as a troll, because I'm not inclined that way. But. . .

After 20 years of posts by Weber that THE LEAGUE IS NOT THE US, you still don't get it. The League is like the post world war I League of Nations--dominated by a few powers, controlled by special interests, utterly corrupt--and in existence solely so its controlling leadership could occupy, hold by force, and deny self-determination to the residents of the middle east, africa and asia. And you want Beowulf to just go along for the ride?

The League as written is NOT a NATION. It is NOT democratic; or even a real representative democracy. And there is not, and never was, any agreement by the member states to gift the bureaucracy with the sort of federal control the US has over its member states. [Someday take a look at Canada for a different style of federalism]. You might consider that it took the Civil War to make that particular bit part of our culture normal in the US. (I mean, federal dominance of member states).

The League as written has more in common with the middle ages Hanseatic League than it does with any Nation as you would have it.

Look at it this way: the leadership of the League are psychopaths. Was it moral for the SS to implement their Final Solution in Poland, Greece, France, and Romania? Sorry, the local governments weren't prepared to deny the Nazis. Beowulf has spent A THOUSAND YEARS trying to be the moral compas and conscious of the bureaucrats. The League League has utterly failed in its purpose; and Beowulf is prepared to let it go.

Instead of projecting your own bias onto the story, why not examine what rfc actually wrote?

I just downloaded MoH from Baen because I didn't want to look for my hardcover. But Filareta deployed to Tasmania BEFORE THE BATTLE OF MONICA. It wasn't in reaction to Spindle; Rajampet was already a tool of the Malign, possibly for many years. The SLN positioned itself for the invasion of Manticore long before there was ANY reason to do so. While New Tuscany and Spindle didn't follow Rajamapet's script, it gave him the opportunity to do what he wanted to do: invade Manticore, cover himself in martial glory, and take the wormhole fees for the SLN and line his pockets in the process. Why should Beowulf--or any of the member states--let the Mandarins lead them into a major war like that?

Consider how many Manticorans are, under Beowulf law, citizens of Beowulf. How long Beowulf has protected Manticoran automony by signing treaties acknowledging Manticoran possession of the MWJ. Centuries in which Manticore and Haven were Beowulf's primary supporters in attempting to suppress the slave trade.

Rajampet's (and the Mandarins') subversion of the Constitution was treason against the League's member states. The members which ratified a Constitution that, requires ALL member states to vote for a war, before the League invades another State. Member systems which, unlike US States, are SOVEREIGN states. Independent countries tied together by a TRADE PACT. A legal document which also allows members to LEAVE.

Also, what constitutes "treason" is defined by law. It is not a moral standard,it is absolutely a LEGAL one.

I just don't understand why you insist on making Beowulf the bad guys here. They aren't sleeping with the "enemy." THEY ARE WAKING UP.

Regards,
Rob
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:58 pm

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cthia wrote:
At any rate, the innocent officers in the SLN were simply followers orders. They already had little chance to succeed. Now they were going to die for certain because someone on their own team "ratted them out."


Re-read the book. Beowulf was trying to PREVENT casualties on both sides.

Rob
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by pappilon   » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:48 am

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Armed Neo-Bob wrote:
cthia wrote:
At any rate, the innocent officers in the SLN were simply followers orders. They already had little chance to succeed. Now they were going to die for certain because someone on their own team "ratted them out."


Re-read the book. Beowulf was trying to PREVENT casualties on both sides.

Rob



And also to try to get Pritchard to restart the peace process. Are we forgetting they also notified Haven? And if anyone committed treason it was the snitch that tipped Beowulf off in the first place. Unless, of course, a Beowulf citizen is inside Operations Planning, then it is a failure of Counterintelligence.
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The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Vince   » Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:09 am

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cthia wrote:On any given day the SLN would have lost to the RMN. In 1001 straight battles they would have found 1001 Ways To Die. But on one particular day, they might have won. We can't know for certain if they couldn't have defeated the RMN on that day. We don't know what hand the meddling Demon Murphy might have dealt the RMN. A large chunk of Home Fleet off exercising. A mistake transiting too large a force through the junction from Manticore to Beowulf, shutting the terminus down leaving Filareta with a piece of cake. The Salamander away. Yatta yatta yatta. We don't really know. And because of Beowulf we never will.

At any rate, the innocent officers in the SLN were simply followers orders. They already had little chance to succeed. Now they were going to die for certain because someone on their own team "ratted them out."

It should be noted that blind obedience to orders, when those orders are illegal, is not a legal defense.

In the United States armed forces, if you carry out an illegal order, you can be court-martialed and convicted for doing so.

It was also established, at the Nuremberg Trials, that obedience to orders, when those orders are illegal, is not a legal defense.
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History does not repeat itself so much as it echoes.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Bluesqueak   » Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:09 am

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Beowulf didn't commit treason when they alerted Manticore to a sneak attack by the League - because ordering Filareta's sneak attack was itself an act of treason against the League's Constitution.

It comes under the enemies, domestic clause.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:23 am

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I don't know how to break this to you all. But just like in another thread, you're barking up the wrong tree.

Indeed Bob. You have a point, many of them. The post is well laid out and articulated and I agree with you all. Except that...

You are making the same mistake as many do when I argue a stance. You are making it personal about me.

I am not arguing cthia's position, I am arguing the League's position. Also, I understand the difference of the League compared to the U.S., and member states and allies. However, not one of our allies, who would object to us attacking North Korea, would turn traitorous. They may refuse to join in, but that would be the limit of their objection.

Many of you are overlooking the unspoken and implied obligations Beowulf has to the League, when they joined. When the League went to Beowulf and laid its cards on the table, perhaps Beowulf could have been conscientious objectors. But it must end there. I'm looking at this thing from the SLN's point of view. Not Beowulf's, not the RMN's, not RFC's readers or cthia. Because the punishment meted out onto Beowulf, will not come from either of us. It will come from the SLN.

Cthia is not arguing any legal or moral high grounds that the League has to stand on, for cthia's sake. Nor does he charge a positively, absolute transgression in either area.* However, I am positing that in the Mandarins eyes, transgressions against the League were made in both areas. Beowulf knew exactly how the League would perceive their actions, and how they'd respond. Beowulf knows exactly what kind of entity the gorilla is. They know for a fact that the League would perceive their actions as traitorous. Not CTHIA, the LEAGUE!

If there had been an EE violation and the SLN was dispatched to deal with the devil, it would have been treasonous of Beowulf to alert the devils the gorilla was coming. Just because they don't believe in a cause is no free pass to turn into rats.

If Grayson or the RMN did the same thing to each other, it would be traitorous. Erewhon was a free agent working with the RMN. That wasn't the same relationship. The same loyalty was not unspoken or implied.

The relationship of Beowulf with the League was unspoken and implied. Certainly in the SLN's mind, where it counts... since Beowulf was leaving and ratting the SLN out, not RFC or any of his readers. There is an 800# difference. If Beowulf would have sold the RMN out, Beowulf would have been labeled traitors even though there was no legal papers between the two.

* What cthia personally thinks is that Beowulf handled it wrongly. They know exactly what type of entity their previous masters are. If they were going to alert the RMN that the juggernaut was coming, it should also have alerted the juggernaut—full of innocent officers following orders—that the Manties knew they were coming. Man up and admit "WE TOLD THEM. THEY ARE PREPARED TO RECEIVE YOU!"

That is where cthia draws the line.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:35 am

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Bluesqueak wrote:Beowulf didn't commit treason when they alerted Manticore to a sneak attack by the League - because ordering Filareta's sneak attack was itself an act of treason against the League's Constitution.

It comes under the enemies, domestic clause.


Like my Driver's Ed teacher once taught us...

It doesn't matter who is right or who is wrong. Dead right or dead wrong, Beowulf is still dead. So drive for the other idiots on the highway as well. Beowulf should have handled it differently so as not to make the gorilla feel used, ratted out and set up.

If you are going to poke and prod the hornet's nest with a stick while you're running away, then accept your punishment.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Vince   » Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:56 am

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cthia wrote:
Bluesqueak wrote:Beowulf didn't commit treason when they alerted Manticore to a sneak attack by the League - because ordering Filareta's sneak attack was itself an act of treason against the League's Constitution.

It comes under the enemies, domestic clause.


Like my Driver's Ed teacher once taught us...

It doesn't matter who is right or who is wrong. Dead right or dead wrong, Beowulf is still dead. So drive for the other idiots on the highway as well. Beowulf should have handled it differently so as not to make the gorilla feel used, ratted out and set up.

If you are going to poke and prod the hornet's nest with a stick while you're running away, then accept your punishment.

If the SLN takes the point that dead right or dead wrong, Beowulf is to be dead, then they had damn well better make sure that 1) Beowulf, and all of its allies, both in and out of the Solarian League, are completely, totally, utterly dead and 2) they have the capability to accomplish that. Because if they don't, they will run head-on into a historically effective strategy commonly known as tit-for-tat.

Or to put it another way:
ON WAR by General Carl von Clausewitz wrote:We therefore repeat our proposition, that War is an act of violence pushed to its utmost bounds; as one side dictates the law to the other, there arises a sort of reciprocal action, which logically must lead to an extreme.

Or:
Primacy of ‘Culture’ over War in a Modern World? John Keegan's Critique Demands a Sophisticated Interpretation of Clausewitz by Andreas Herberg-Rothe wrote: War is an act of force and there is no logical limit to the application of that force, because violence is exceeding the limits itself, little by little.


Taken to logical ends, if the Solarian League Navy commits and Epsilon Eridani Edict violation against the Beowulf, they must expect retaliation in both greater degree and kind. And the Grand Alliance has the advantages of interior lines of communication inside the Solarian League, more qualitatively capable naval forces as well as more combat experienced naval forces--especially in missile combat, plus true multi-drive missiles. All of which the SLN does not have, and doesn't know it lacks.

It is the Solarian League Navy, if they attempt to attack Beowulf, will be poking the hornet's nest--and if Grand Alliance forces are present--they will not be using a stick, but their bare heads to do the poking with--and they haven't a proper appreciation of how truly outclassed they are. At best, only a very, very few SLN officers have the beginnings of a glimmer of a clue of how bad a situation they are in if they attempt hostilities.

The eventual foreseeable outcome, should the SLN go down the path of Epsilon Eridani Edict violations, will be a dozen or so MDMs hitting each and every one of the League planets (which have no capability of dodging) at relativistic velocities. That will put an end to the League and its Navy's capability to wage war, because the League will be, as your Driver's Ed instructor put it you, in the end, be dead.
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History does not repeat itself so much as it echoes.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:49 am

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cthia wrote:There was no declaration of war.



But.

Operation Raging Justice was the SLN's declaration of survival. They were trying to preempt the situation they're in now. A quick, unexpected thrust. And who's to say it wouldn't have worked? Had it not been for Beowulf!
Given the Manticore system defenses!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

A few hundred obsolete SDs dropping in at the hyper limit would have been dead meat to all the MDM pods around Sphinx and Manticore even if 8th fleet wasn't still hanging around assigned as Home Fleet.

Raging Justice had no chance of taking over Manticore and only limited chances of causing serious harm before dying. What lack of notice would have meant was the Manticore wouldn't have been able to put on the show of force that almost succeeded in forcing their surrender without firing a shot and which still kept their destruction from being total. If rushed they may not have had time to temper their system defense response and would have to err on the side of making sure the large number of ships couldn't be a continued threat.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by ldwechsler   » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:05 pm

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Vince wrote:
cthia wrote:Beowulf didn't commit treason when they alerted Manticore to a sneak attack by the League - because ordering Filareta's sneak attack was itself an act of treason against the League's Constitution.

It comes under the enemies, domestic clause.


Like my Driver's Ed teacher once taught us...

It doesn't matter who is right or who is wrong. Dead right or dead wrong, Beowulf is still dead. So drive for the other idiots on the highway as well. Beowulf should have handled it differently so as not to make the gorilla feel used, ratted out and set up.

If you are going to poke and prod the hornet's nest with a stick while you're running away, then accept your punishment.

If the SLN takes the point that dead right or dead wrong, Beowulf is to be dead, then they had damn well better make sure that 1) Beowulf, and all of its allies, both in and out of the Solarian League, are completely, totally, utterly dead and 2) they have the capability to accomplish that. Because if they don't, they will run head-on into a historically effective strategy commonly known as tit-for-tat.

Or to put it another way:
ON WAR by General Carl von Clausewitz wrote:We therefore repeat our proposition, that War is an act of violence pushed to its utmost bounds; as one side dictates the law to the other, there arises a sort of reciprocal action, which logically must lead to an extreme.

Or:
Primacy of ‘Culture’ over War in a Modern World? John Keegan's Critique Demands a Sophisticated Interpretation of Clausewitz by Andreas Herberg-Rothe wrote: War is an act of force and there is no logical limit to the application of that force, because violence is exceeding the limits itself, little by little.


Taken to logical ends, if the Solarian League Navy commits and Epsilon Eridani Edict violation against the Beowulf, they must expect retaliation in both greater degree and kind. And the Grand Alliance has the advantages of interior lines of communication inside the Solarian League, more qualitatively capable naval forces as well as more combat experienced naval forces--especially in missile combat, plus true multi-drive missiles. All of which the SLN does not have, and doesn't know it lacks.

It is the Solarian League Navy, if they attempt to attack Beowulf, will be poking the hornet's nest--and if Grand Alliance forces are present--they will not be using a stick, but their bare heads to do the poking with--and they haven't a proper appreciation of how truly outclassed they are. At best, only a very, very few SLN officers have the beginnings of a glimmer of a clue of how bad a situation they are in if they attempt hostilities.

The eventual foreseeable outcome, should the SLN go down the path of Epsilon Eridani Edict violations, will be a dozen or so MDMs hitting each and every one of the League planets (which have no capability of dodging) at relativistic velocities. That will put an end to the League and its Navy's capability to wage war, because the League will be, as your Driver's Ed instructor put it you, in the end, be dead.[/quote]

I doubt an Eridani violation was ever really planned. That would presume that people in the League were actually insane. There is no way any plan like that could stay hidden.

More likely, escalations could happen. The destruction of the Yawata strike might not be considered a violation because they hit orbital stations. The falling junk did most of the damage.

But even MAlign did not want to attack the planets.

The Mandarins are slime but not insane. If Beowulf were destroyed by an Eridani violation, there would be immediate trouble...and no defense.
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