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BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA

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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Annachie   » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:08 pm

Annachie
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What treason?

Beowolf informed the wormhole managers that a illegal attempt was made to use the wormhole.

Wouldn't suprise me if there was a contractual obligation to inform them.

Now the SLN navy possibly was commiting treason by going against the cinstitution and then threatening a member planet over it.
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You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
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still not dead. :)
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by ldwechsler   » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:13 pm

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Annachie wrote:What treason?

Beowolf informed the wormhole managers that a illegal attempt was made to use the wormhole.

Wouldn't suprise me if there was a contractual obligation to inform them.

Now the SLN navy possibly was commiting treason by going against the cinstitution and then threatening a member planet over it.


No, the real threat was Filareta and he did not use the wormhole.

However, I doubt we can talk about loyalty to the League. We have the UN but how many people are loyal to it? We are loyal to
our own countries.

Beowulf passed on the info because they opposed the action. It was an action approved by a group of non-elected bureaucrats, not the League Assembly.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Annachie   » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:43 pm

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Not 100% sure, but I don't believe the SLN know who tipped off Manticore that Fillareta was on his way.
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You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
still not dead. :)
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:53 pm

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Annachie wrote:Not 100% sure, but I don't believe the SLN know who tipped off Manticore that Fillareta was on his way.


I didn't think that they know either, but if they don't suspect Beowulf then they really need to get out of the ONI game.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:02 pm

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cthia wrote:...who's to say it wouldn't have worked? ...


Sandra Crandall? Adm Byng?

Oooops, they're both dead. How about the survivors from their commands?

Just about anyone who traveled through the Beowulf terminus -- like maybe the dispatch boat that sat around the Manticore end of the WHJ before bringing word of Adm Filareta's arrival?
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:06 pm

cthia
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Annachie wrote:What treason?

Beowolf informed the wormhole managers that a illegal attempt was made to use the wormhole.

Wouldn't suprise me if there was a contractual obligation to inform them.

Now the SLN navy possibly was commiting treason by going against the cinstitution and then threatening a member planet over it.


Legal. Illegal. These are much smaller transgressions than treason. Combatants muddy the legal and the illegal line all of the time. They toe the line.

"No, we did not cross the 37th parallel."

"We were in international waters."


That is for one to take up with his own country. Not to take matters into his own hands and resort to treason, killing even more of his own soldiers.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Dca   » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:02 pm

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but Alice's action preventing Tsang from transiting the Beowulf wormhole came ar the moment of Filaretas attack, which was WAY after the black channel leak. Which does not speak to the troll of "TREASON!" Treason is about aid to enemies, which is still missing that darned declaration of war. I'm confident that won't be a problem for Tyrone Reid and company, but so what? The whole concept of treason implies a body worthy of respect and adherence, which the SL is (mostly) sorely lacking.
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:48 pm

cthia
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Weird Harold wrote:
cthia wrote:...who's to say it wouldn't have worked? ...


Sandra Crandall? Adm Byng?

Oooops, they're both dead. How about the survivors from their commands?

Just about anyone who traveled through the Beowulf terminus -- like maybe the dispatch boat that sat around the Manticore end of the WHJ before bringing word of Adm Filareta's arrival?


On any given day the SLN would have lost to the RMN. In 1001 straight battles they would have found 1001 Ways To Die. But on one particular day, they might have won. We can't know for certain if they couldn't have defeated the RMN on that day. We don't know what hand the meddling Demon Murphy might have dealt the RMN. A large chunk of Home Fleet off exercising. A mistake transiting too large a force through the junction from Manticore to Beowulf, shutting the terminus down leaving Filareta with a piece of cake. The Salamander away. Yatta yatta yatta. We don't really know. And because of Beowulf we never will.

At any rate, the innocent officers in the SLN were simply followers orders. They already had little chance to succeed. Now they were going to die for certain because someone on their own team "ratted them out."

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by cthia   » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:02 pm

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Beowulf knows the Kama Sutra well. They like being in untenable positions that can ph**k them. Well, guess what, Beowulf should have checked with the Health Department before sleeping with the enemy.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:55 pm

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cthia wrote:Beowulf knows the Kama Sutra well. They like being in untenable positions that can ph**k them. Well, guess what, Beowulf should have checked with the Health Department before sleeping with the enemy.



Cthia, what I don't get is that you are a smart guy. And I don't mean to come off as a troll, because I'm not inclined that way. But. . .

After 20 years of posts by Weber that THE LEAGUE IS NOT THE US, you still don't get it. The League is like the post world war I League of Nations--dominated by a few powers, controlled by special interests, utterly corrupt--and in existence solely so its controlling leadership could occupy, hold by force, and deny self-determination to the residents of the middle east, africa and asia. And you want Beowulf to just go along for the ride?

The League as written is NOT a NATION. It is NOT democratic; or even a real representative democracy. And there is not, and never was, any agreement by the member states to gift the bureaucracy with the sort of federal control the US has over its member states. [Someday take a look at Canada for a different style of federalism]. You might consider that it took the Civil War to make that particular bit part of our culture normal in the US. (I mean, federal dominance of member states).

The League as written has more in common with the middle ages Hanseatic League than it does with any Nation as you would have it.

Look at it this way: the leadership of the League are psychopaths. Was it moral for the SS to implement their Final Solution in Poland, Greece, France, and Romania? Sorry, the local governments weren't prepared to deny the Nazis. Beowulf has spent A THOUSAND YEARS trying to be the moral compas and conscious of the bureaucrats. The League League has utterly failed in its purpose; and Beowulf is prepared to let it go.

Instead of projecting your own bias onto the story, why not examine what rfc actually wrote?

I just downloaded MoH from Baen because I didn't want to look for my hardcover. But Filareta deployed to Tasmania BEFORE THE BATTLE OF MONICA. It wasn't in reaction to Spindle; Rajampet was already a tool of the Malign, possibly for many years. The SLN positioned itself for the invasion of Manticore long before there was ANY reason to do so. While New Tuscany and Spindle didn't follow Rajamapet's script, it gave him the opportunity to do what he wanted to do: invade Manticore, cover himself in martial glory, and take the wormhole fees for the SLN and line his pockets in the process. Why should Beowulf--or any of the member states--let the Mandarins lead them into a major war like that?

Consider how many Manticorans are, under Beowulf law, citizens of Beowulf. How long Beowulf has protected Manticoran automony by signing treaties acknowledging Manticoran possession of the MWJ. Centuries in which Manticore and Haven were Beowulf's primary supporters in attempting to suppress the slave trade.

Rajampet's (and the Mandarins') subversion of the Constitution was treason against the League's member states. The members which ratified a Constitution that, requires ALL member states to vote for a war, before the League invades another State. Member systems which, unlike US States, are SOVEREIGN states. Independent countries tied together by a TRADE PACT. A legal document which also allows members to LEAVE.

Also, what constitutes "treason" is defined by law. It is not a moral standard,it is absolutely a LEGAL one.

I just don't understand why you insist on making Beowulf the bad guys here. They aren't sleeping with the "enemy." THEY ARE WAKING UP.

Regards,
Rob
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