BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA

What I said is what I meant. The problem from the SLN point of view is the situation has changed, and they don't realize how drastically it has changed.

No, the gorilla doesn't realize how the traffic patterns have changed, he's a gorilla. He's also an irresponsible driver driving w/o a license because of so many infractions accumulated over the centuries. He speeds down every road ignoring every yield sign in sight. He's a gorilla with a badge and he's been policing the Hwys for centuries. When he wants to speed, he just turns on his siren, places a light atop his cruisers and hauls ass through every stoplight until he gets to where he's going, ready to draw his weapon and shoot first, w/o asking questions.

'Taint nothing changed about the gorilla with a badge or his MO for centuries. Or his perceived license to kill. He's been illegally weaving in and out of traffic for centuries and Beowulf has been tailgating him all the while. So she knows. She knows. But she hasn't yet learned that tailgating is unsafe. Drop back, give the idiot a wide birth. The gorilla has a skull and cross bones painted on his truck in a Death Race 2000 just looking for someone's ass to run over for points! Can't say it enough, that's his MO. But then, who is the most looney, the gorilla? Or a high strung gf out for a stroll in a sedan, running away from her road raging husband who doesn't even see her on the highway until she makes a dangerous U-turn and decides to take him on - head on! A sedan playing chicken on the highway with a tractor and trailer simply because it isn't loaded?

"Na na na na na naaaa. I got a new boyyyyyy friend." Knowing full-well her new bf isn't going to be with her at all times. He's got work to do.

To use your driver's education analog, and applying a rule that I learned in driver's education: The lug nut rule--the vehicle with the most lug nuts will win (suffer less damage, not have the driver or passengers killed or injured--or at least suffer much less severe injuries) in a collision with a vehicle with fewer lug nuts.

Problem Beowulf. The SLN has more lug nuts and NUTS than they do. Which is why Beowulf ends up with 20M dead.

Now, her mad as hell bf has more lug nuts and will win his sortie against the gorilla, but it ain't gonna matter one bit, to the 20M little red headed step chullin chillin on ice, kids of hers dead.

Essentially the situation you are analogizing is Beowulf (as a sedan passenger vehicle) was on a road approaching a cross traffic intersection with two roads intersecting at 90 degrees with a green traffic light. The SLN (as a fully loaded tractor trailer) approaching the same intersection with a red light on the other road, but is refusing to obey the red light and stop at the intersection until the light goes green. Beowulf can see the 80,000 pound SLN truck approaching the intersection and if they attempt to go through on the green light, they know they will be run over by the SLN running the red light and be killed in the collision.

The problem I don't think you are seeing, and the problem the SLN definitely isn't seeing, is the situation is no longer the same as it was for hundreds of years previously.

Of course I see it. How can a reader not see it?

Correct, the SLN does NOT see it. But Beowulf knows the Gorilla doesn't see it. That fact is part of the reason Beowulf should have confronted the Mandarins in public. Beowulf also knows the SLN does NOT see the traffic light, or rather Beowulf knows full-well the SLN is in the habit of running red lights. The Gorilla has been color blind for centuries. So, it's a perfect opportunity for Beowulf to drive for the other idiot on the hwy too. In a safe manner that doesn't cost her lives.

The SLN is still driving the truck, but the truck is now empty, a hollow shell that no longer weighs 80,000 pounds, but only 20,000 pounds.

An empty 20,000 pound rig will still tear the hell out of a sedan.

Beowulf is still in the sedan, but is no longer driving on the road. Instead the sedan is loaded on the Grand Alliance freight train (on an automotive traincar carrier) with ten 200 ton locomotives and one hundred full ore cars weighing 300,000 pounds each moving down the railroad tracks that run parallel to the road (that Beowulf's sedan was previously driving on) at 120 miles per hour towards the railroad crossing.

You and I have been reading vastly different books. Beowulf IS NOT loaded on the GA freight train. That would amount to Beowulf sitting in the Manticore Binary System. She is not. She is on the RMN railway, needing only to throw a switch to sidetrack the RMN to her depot through the junction. But Beowulf is still driving on her on. She is making political decisions on her own. The referendum is her own bailiwick. She is NOT loaded on the RMN train, that would truly be treason before a referendum. Marriage before divorce. She's just a stop along the way.

The crossing lights are flashing,

That flashing is the strobing yellow light that flashes on some traffic lights to warn speeding motorists (Beowulf) that she is proceeding too quickly to stop for the imminent red light. The red light is her warning NOT to interfere with her own founding's attempt to enter the intersection. If an empty rig does not intend to stop because it thinks it has the right of way, what the hell is a sedan doing trying to pit maneuver it? There'll be repercussions. Heck, Beowulf should be given a ticket for an unsafe maneuver.

The unsafe maneuver is what this thread is about - Karma.

the crossing guard arms have come down, the traffic lights for the roads (not the railroad track) are showing red in all directions, including for the SLN truck, the freight train has its headlight on and is sounding its horn, but the SLN truck driver is too stupid or stubborn to do anything but decide to try to beat the train, with an old, obsolete truck that can't accelerate to beat the train, but that could stop in time if the driver decided to step on the brakes.

You still don't get what this thread is about. None of that matters as far as the innocent lives snuffed out on Beowulf. Because she tried to take on a road raging Gorilla in a lorry with a Toyota Corolla - hoping her bf who drives a train will get to her before the road raging gorilla takes her out.

A 20M lives mistake.

Who do you think will be dead when the GA freight train collides broadside with the SLN truck? Example of truck train collision

Oh yeeeea. There'll be some deaths on that SLN truck for sure. But! The Gorilla has a fleet of trucks on the Hwy and one will make it through on her next long distance haul just in time to take part in a 20M car pileup - at an intersection in Beowulfan space.

Simply because Beowulf didn't respect an out of control road raging Gorilla.

All because the SLN truck driver was too stupid or stubborn to obey the rules of the road. As you say: dead wrong or dead right is still dead. A failure to obey the rules of the road, and a complete misread of the situation as it actually exists, results in a dead SLN.

I agree. Everyone knows the truck driver is stupid. He's also arrogant. He's also color blind, and couldn't see a red light if they were all red. Beowulf knows he's stupid. Full of road rage. And color blind. All she had to do to not suffer ANY deaths was pull over on the soft shoulder and let the raging lunatic get through the intersection. If he wants to kill himself, LET HIM! But please, do protect your own!

I don't know anyone driving a sedan who wouldn't yield for a rig driven by an out of control raging gorilla charging through an intersection on a mission.

Little consolation that someone dies with you.

Beowulf should learn to handle road rage better.

Beowulf trying to stop while she's tailgating and following too closely on the heels of a war, is like hitting your breaks when its just starting to rain and hydroplaning . . . right smack dab into trouble.

The analogies flying around might get full marks in a class on creative writing, but do not seem to advance the debate. In Thomas Kuhn's book on scientific revolutions, sometimes one side wins because the adherents on the other side have died out; this may be one of those cases.


PS. AAC describes the Moriarty system, it does not mention the system defense called Mycroft.

ldwechsler wrote:Has anyone worked on the notion that in some ways almost all of us are right?

Yes, if you commit a major genocide, you better be certain the other side gets scared. Note the Holocaust. The Germans did what they wanted and kept records. The records helped imprison at least a few.

I don't think the mandarins planned a genocide. They wanted major destruction...teach Beowulf a lesson. And, of course, their could have been tit for tat. Could really have been had Honor Harrington not pulled back.

And yes the situation had changed. Remember back a whole group of books ago and the Sollies seemed invincible. But they went down really fast. Times do change.

So all of this is true. Times changed and you do have to watch out for the other fellow.

One thing it would be interesting to know: what will happens when Hyacinth and a few others sue the League for damages?

Again, ultimately it isn't about right or wrong. Ultimately, Beowulf was right to finally try to do something to get out of the mob. Her timing is suspect and she made some bad decisions along the way.

"Let's sneak out the back door!"

"Fine, but let's try not to make so much noise."

tlb wrote:The analogies flying around might get full marks in a class on creative writing, but do not seem to advance the debate. In Thomas Kuhn's book on scientific revolutions, sometimes one side wins because the adherents on the other side have died out; this may be one of those cases.


PS. AAC describes the Moriarty system, it does not mention the system defense called Mycroft.

It wasn't meant to advance the troops, I was simply supporting a fortified position.

cthia wrote:"Let's sneak out the back door!"

"Fine, but let's try not to make so much noise."

I seemed to me that they kicked the front door down on their way out...

cthia wrote:

What I said is what I meant. The problem from the SLN point of view is the situation has changed, and they don't realize how drastically it has changed.

No, the gorilla doesn't realize how the traffic patterns have changed, he's a gorilla. He's also an irresponsible driver driving w/o a license because of so many infractions accumulated over the centuries. He speeds down every road ignoring every yield sign in sight. He's a gorilla with a badge and he's been policing the Hwys for centuries. When he wants to speed, he just turns on his siren, places a light atop his cruisers and hauls ass through every stoplight until he gets to where he's going, ready to draw his weapon and shoot first, w/o asking questions.

'Taint nothing changed about the gorilla with a badge or his MO for centuries. Or his perceived license to kill. He's been illegally weaving in and out of traffic for centuries and Beowulf has been tailgating him all the while. So she knows. She knows. But she hasn't yet learned that tailgating is unsafe. Drop back, give the idiot a wide birth. The gorilla has a skull and cross bones painted on his truck in a Death Race 2000 just looking for someone's ass to run over for points! Can't say it enough, that's his MO. But then, who is the most looney, the gorilla? Or a high strung gf out for a stroll in a sedan, running away from her road raging husband who doesn't even see her on the highway until she makes a dangerous U-turn and decides to take him on - head on! A sedan playing chicken on the highway with a tractor and trailer simply because it isn't loaded?

"Na na na na na naaaa. I got a new boyyyyyy friend." Knowing full-well her new bf isn't going to be with her at all times. He's got work to do.

To use your driver's education analog, and applying a rule that I learned in driver's education: The lug nut rule--the vehicle with the most lug nuts will win (suffer less damage, not have the driver or passengers killed or injured--or at least suffer much less severe injuries) in a collision with a vehicle with fewer lug nuts.

Problem Beowulf. The SLN has more lug nuts and NUTS than they do. Which is why Beowulf ends up with 20M dead.

Now, her mad as hell bf has more lug nuts and will win his sortie against the gorilla, but it ain't gonna matter one bit, to the 20M little red headed step chullin chillin on ice, kids of hers dead.

Essentially the situation you are analogizing is Beowulf (as a sedan passenger vehicle) was on a road approaching a cross traffic intersection with two roads intersecting at 90 degrees with a green traffic light. The SLN (as a fully loaded tractor trailer) approaching the same intersection with a red light on the other road, but is refusing to obey the red light and stop at the intersection until the light goes green. Beowulf can see the 80,000 pound SLN truck approaching the intersection and if they attempt to go through on the green light, they know they will be run over by the SLN running the red light and be killed in the collision.

The problem I don't think you are seeing, and the problem the SLN definitely isn't seeing, is the situation is no longer the same as it was for hundreds of years previously.

Of course I see it. How can a reader not see it?

Correct, the SLN does NOT see it. But Beowulf knows the Gorilla doesn't see it. That fact is part of the reason Beowulf should have confronted the Mandarins in public. Beowulf also knows the SLN does NOT see the traffic light, or rather Beowulf knows full-well the SLN is in the habit of running red lights. The Gorilla has been color blind for centuries. So, it's a perfect opportunity for Beowulf to drive for the other idiot on the hwy too. In a safe manner that doesn't cost her lives.

The SLN is still driving the truck, but the truck is now empty, a hollow shell that no longer weighs 80,000 pounds, but only 20,000 pounds.

An empty 20,000 pound rig will still tear the hell out of a sedan.

Beowulf is still in the sedan, but is no longer driving on the road. Instead the sedan is loaded on the Grand Alliance freight train (on an automotive traincar carrier) with ten 200 ton locomotives and one hundred full ore cars weighing 300,000 pounds each moving down the railroad tracks that run parallel to the road (that Beowulf's sedan was previously driving on) at 120 miles per hour towards the railroad crossing.

You and I have been reading vastly different books. Beowulf IS NOT loaded on the GA freight train. That would amount to Beowulf sitting in the Manticore Binary System. She is not. She is on the RMN railway, needing only to throw a switch to sidetrack the RMN to her depot through the junction. But Beowulf is still driving on her on. She is making political decisions on her own. The referendum is her own bailiwick. She is NOT loaded on the RMN train, that would truly be treason before a referendum. Marriage before divorce. She's just a stop along the way.

The crossing lights are flashing,

That flashing is the strobing yellow light that flashes on some traffic lights to warn speeding motorists (Beowulf) that she is proceeding too quickly to stop for the imminent red light. The red light is her warning NOT to interfere with her own founding's attempt to enter the intersection. If an empty rig does not intend to stop because it thinks it has the right of way, what the hell is a sedan doing trying to pit maneuver it? There'll be repercussions. Heck, Beowulf should be given a ticket for an unsafe maneuver.

The unsafe maneuver is what this thread is about - Karma.

the crossing guard arms have come down, the traffic lights for the roads (not the railroad track) are showing red in all directions, including for the SLN truck, the freight train has its headlight on and is sounding its horn, but the SLN truck driver is too stupid or stubborn to do anything but decide to try to beat the train, with an old, obsolete truck that can't accelerate to beat the train, but that could stop in time if the driver decided to step on the brakes.

You still don't get what this thread is about. None of that matters as far as the innocent lives snuffed out on Beowulf. Because she tried to take on a road raging Gorilla in a lorry with a Toyota Corolla - hoping her bf who drives a train will get to her before the road raging gorilla takes her out.

A 20M lives mistake.

Who do you think will be dead when the GA freight train collides broadside with the SLN truck? Example of truck train collision

Oh yeeeea. There'll be some deaths on that SLN truck for sure. But! The Gorilla has a fleet of trucks on the Hwy and one will make it through on her next long distance haul just in time to take part in a 20M car pileup - at an intersection in Beowulfan space.

Simply because Beowulf didn't respect an out of control road raging Gorilla.

All because the SLN truck driver was too stupid or stubborn to obey the rules of the road. As you say: dead wrong or dead right is still dead. A failure to obey the rules of the road, and a complete misread of the situation as it actually exists, results in a dead SLN.

I agree. Everyone knows the truck driver is stupid. He's also arrogant. He's also color blind, and couldn't see a red light if they were all red. Beowulf knows he's stupid. Full of road rage. And color blind. All she had to do to not suffer ANY deaths was pull over on the soft shoulder and let the raging lunatic get through the intersection. If he wants to kill himself, LET HIM! But please, do protect your own!

I don't know anyone driving a sedan who wouldn't yield for a rig driven by an out of control raging gorilla charging through an intersection on a mission.

Little consolation that someone dies with you.

Beowulf should learn to handle road rage better.

I respectfully suggest you ask your Romanian friends if the Romanian Revolution should not have taken place. If it hadn't, it would have saved 1,104 lives that were lost in the revolution.

Some things are worth paying the price for, even if it is the ultimate price.

Joat42 wrote:

cthia wrote:"Let's sneak out the back door!"

"Fine, but let's try not to make so much noise."

I seemed to me that they kicked the front door down on their way out...

Ain't too smart to wake a testy Gorilla by making so much commotion, and leaving him with a ruined front door while you sneak your boyfriend through the backdoor to blindside him. Gutsy. But stupid.

All she had to do was ease the backdoor open and tiptoe through the tulips. And for goodness sakes, leave the phucking lights off!

cthia wrote:

What I said is what I meant. The problem from the SLN point of view is the situation has changed, and they don't realize how drastically it has changed.

No, the gorilla doesn't realize how the traffic patterns have changed, he's a gorilla. He's also an irresponsible driver driving w/o a license because of so many infractions accumulated over the centuries. He speeds down every road ignoring every yield sign in sight. He's a gorilla with a badge and he's been policing the Hwys for centuries. When he wants to speed, he just turns on his siren, places a light atop his cruisers and hauls ass through every stoplight until he gets to where he's going, ready to draw his weapon and shoot first, w/o asking questions.

'Taint nothing changed about the gorilla with a badge or his MO for centuries. Or his perceived license to kill. He's been illegally weaving in and out of traffic for centuries and Beowulf has been tailgating him all the while. So she knows. She knows. But she hasn't yet learned that tailgating is unsafe. Drop back, give the idiot a wide birth. The gorilla has a skull and cross bones painted on his truck in a Death Race 2000 just looking for someone's ass to run over for points! Can't say it enough, that's his MO. But then, who is the most looney, the gorilla? Or a high strung gf out for a stroll in a sedan, running away from her road raging husband who doesn't even see her on the highway until she makes a dangerous U-turn and decides to take him on - head on! A sedan playing chicken on the highway with a tractor and trailer simply because it isn't loaded?

"Na na na na na naaaa. I got a new boyyyyyy friend." Knowing full-well her new bf isn't going to be with her at all times. He's got work to do.

To use your driver's education analog, and applying a rule that I learned in driver's education: The lug nut rule--the vehicle with the most lug nuts will win (suffer less damage, not have the driver or passengers killed or injured--or at least suffer much less severe injuries) in a collision with a vehicle with fewer lug nuts.

Problem Beowulf. The SLN has more lug nuts and NUTS than they do. Which is why Beowulf ends up with 20M dead.

Now, her mad as hell bf has more lug nuts and will win his sortie against the gorilla, but it ain't gonna matter one bit, to the 20M little red headed step chullin chillin on ice, kids of hers dead.

Essentially the situation you are analogizing is Beowulf (as a sedan passenger vehicle) was on a road approaching a cross traffic intersection with two roads intersecting at 90 degrees with a green traffic light. The SLN (as a fully loaded tractor trailer) approaching the same intersection with a red light on the other road, but is refusing to obey the red light and stop at the intersection until the light goes green. Beowulf can see the 80,000 pound SLN truck approaching the intersection and if they attempt to go through on the green light, they know they will be run over by the SLN running the red light and be killed in the collision.

The problem I don't think you are seeing, and the problem the SLN definitely isn't seeing, is the situation is no longer the same as it was for hundreds of years previously.

Of course I see it. How can a reader not see it?

Correct, the SLN does NOT see it. But Beowulf knows the Gorilla doesn't see it. That fact is part of the reason Beowulf should have confronted the Mandarins in public. Beowulf also knows the SLN does NOT see the traffic light, or rather Beowulf knows full-well the SLN is in the habit of running red lights. The Gorilla has been color blind for centuries. So, it's a perfect opportunity for Beowulf to drive for the other idiot on the hwy too. In a safe manner that doesn't cost her lives.

The SLN is still driving the truck, but the truck is now empty, a hollow shell that no longer weighs 80,000 pounds, but only 20,000 pounds.

An empty 20,000 pound rig will still tear the hell out of a sedan.

Beowulf is still in the sedan, but is no longer driving on the road. Instead the sedan is loaded on the Grand Alliance freight train (on an automotive traincar carrier) with ten 200 ton locomotives and one hundred full ore cars weighing 300,000 pounds each moving down the railroad tracks that run parallel to the road (that Beowulf's sedan was previously driving on) at 120 miles per hour towards the railroad crossing.

You and I have been reading vastly different books. Beowulf IS NOT loaded on the GA freight train. That would amount to Beowulf sitting in the Manticore Binary System. She is not. She is on the RMN railway, needing only to throw a switch to sidetrack the RMN to her depot through the junction. But Beowulf is still driving on her on. She is making political decisions on her own. The referendum is her own bailiwick. She is NOT loaded on the RMN train, that would truly be treason before a referendum. Marriage before divorce. She's just a stop along the way.

The crossing lights are flashing,

That flashing is the strobing yellow light that flashes on some traffic lights to warn speeding motorists (Beowulf) that she is proceeding too quickly to stop for the imminent red light. The red light is her warning NOT to interfere with her own founding's attempt to enter the intersection. If an empty rig does not intend to stop because it thinks it has the right of way, what the hell is a sedan doing trying to pit maneuver it? There'll be repercussions. Heck, Beowulf should be given a ticket for an unsafe maneuver.

The unsafe maneuver is what this thread is about - Karma.

the crossing guard arms have come down, the traffic lights for the roads (not the railroad track) are showing red in all directions, including for the SLN truck, the freight train has its headlight on and is sounding its horn, but the SLN truck driver is too stupid or stubborn to do anything but decide to try to beat the train, with an old, obsolete truck that can't accelerate to beat the train, but that could stop in time if the driver decided to step on the brakes.

You still don't get what this thread is about. None of that matters as far as the innocent lives snuffed out on Beowulf. Because she tried to take on a road raging Gorilla in a lorry with a Toyota Corolla - hoping her bf who drives a train will get to her before the road raging gorilla takes her out.

A 20M lives mistake.

Who do you think will be dead when the GA freight train collides broadside with the SLN truck? Example of truck train collision

Oh yeeeea. There'll be some deaths on that SLN truck for sure. But! The Gorilla has a fleet of trucks on the Hwy and one will make it through on her next long distance haul just in time to take part in a 20M car pileup - at an intersection in Beowulfan space.

Simply because Beowulf didn't respect an out of control road raging Gorilla.

All because the SLN truck driver was too stupid or stubborn to obey the rules of the road. As you say: dead wrong or dead right is still dead. A failure to obey the rules of the road, and a complete misread of the situation as it actually exists, results in a dead SLN.

I agree. Everyone knows the truck driver is stupid. He's also arrogant. He's also color blind, and couldn't see a red light if they were all red. Beowulf knows he's stupid. Full of road rage. And color blind. All she had to do to not suffer ANY deaths was pull over on the soft shoulder and let the raging lunatic get through the intersection. If he wants to kill himself, LET HIM! But please, do protect your own!

I don't know anyone driving a sedan who wouldn't yield for a rig driven by an out of control raging gorilla charging through an intersection on a mission.

Little consolation that someone dies with you.

Beowulf should learn to handle road rage better.

Vince wrote:I respectfully suggest you ask your Romanian friends if the Romanian Revolution should not have taken place. If it hadn't, it would have saved 1,104 lives that were lost in the revolution.

Some things are worth paying the price for, even if it is the ultimate price.

No argument from me there. The people of Ro are still suffering from that government.

However, I doubt they would have made the situation worse by causing meaningless deaths that could have been avoided. Paying a price that didn't have to be paid.

ldwechsler wrote:Has anyone worked on the notion that in some ways almost all of us are right?

Yes, if you commit a major genocide, you better be certain the other side gets scared. Note the Holocaust. The Germans did what they wanted and kept records. The records helped imprison at least a few.

I don't think the mandarins planned a genocide. They wanted major destruction...teach Beowulf a lesson. And, of course, their could have been tit for tat. Could really have been had Honor Harrington not pulled back.

And yes the situation had changed. Remember back a whole group of books ago and the Sollies seemed invincible. But they went down really fast. Times do change.

So all of this is true. Times changed and you do have to watch out for the other fellow.

One thing it would be interesting to know: what will happens when Hyacinth and a few others sue the League for damages?

cthia wrote:Again, ultimately it isn't about right or wrong. Ultimately, Beowulf was right to finally try to do something to get out of the mob. Her timing is suspect and she made some bad decisions along the way.

"Let's sneak out the back door!"

"Fine, but let's try not to make so much noise."

Do we believe that the Detweilers had contingency plans that would result in damage to Beowulf; no matter what they attempted to do? Because they have their hooks sunk deepest into the SLN, it seems reasonable that they could contrive an incident which would be augmented; the same as the incident was with Byng. Not just the plan that may have unfolded in UH, but others in case Beowulf tried to do something else; such as staying in the League to block a formal war declaration.

PS. AAC describes the Moriarty system, it does not mention the system defense called Mycroft.