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Ivitation to discuss Call to Vengeance snippets (spoilers)

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Re: Ivitation to discuss Call to Vengeance snippets (spoiler
Post by George J. Smith   » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:39 am

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cthia wrote:My bad. I meant to say Richard but was thinking Roger. I didn't know there was a Richard Winton.

The complete Winton family tree would be nice. There must be a version somewhere.


cthia

try this link

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7307&p=201600&hilit=Family+tree#p201600
.
T&R
GJS

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Re: Ivitation to discuss Call to Vengeance snippets (spoiler
Post by cthia   » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:29 am

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George J. Smith wrote:
cthia wrote:My bad. I meant to say Richard but was thinking Roger. I didn't know there was a Richard Winton.

The complete Winton family tree would be nice. There must be a version somewhere.


cthia

try this link

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7307&p=201600&hilit=Family+tree#p201600


Thanks George!


About Call to Vengeance. Seems I was mistaken about the timeline here. Which is pretty much now.

I don't understand why, or how, certain factions of the government can be in an anti-navy mood, with all that has happened to Manticore lately, considering how the navy was instrumental in saving its hide. It should be considered a crime to be anti-navy in light of past events! Unless you are downright suicidal or insane and in need of immediate clinical help!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Ivitation to discuss Call to Vengeance snippets (spoiler
Post by cthia   » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:40 am

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What is up with this fellow called blurb and his "RMN stands on the brink of collapse" crap as a result of Oyster Bay?

I didn't get the memo.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Ivitation to discuss Call to Vengeance snippets (spoiler
Post by n7axw   » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:50 am

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Annachie wrote:I'm not sure it matters how effective Edward was.

His sucessor was an Elizabeth.

He was going to be outshone pretty much regardless.


Accordiing to the wiki, Edward only reigned two years before he was tragicly killed in a boating accident. Elizabeth II, his younger sister, reigned fifty seven years.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Ivitation to discuss Call to Vengeance snippets (spoiler
Post by isaac_newton   » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:55 am

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cthia wrote:What is up with this fellow called blurb and his "RMN stands on the brink of collapse" crap as a result of Oyster Bay?

I didn't get the memo.


isn't that relating to another topic [i.e. latest honerverse book/spoilers] - can't see how it could apply to a Manticore Assendant series book!!

that rather did my head in for a few seconds :-)
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Re: Ivitation to discuss Call to Vengeance snippets (spoiler
Post by cthia   » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:19 pm

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isaac_newton wrote:
cthia wrote:What is up with this fellow called blurb and his "RMN stands on the brink of collapse" crap as a result of Oyster Bay?

I didn't get the memo.


isn't that relating to another topic [i.e. latest honerverse book/spoilers] - can't see how it could apply to a Manticore Assendant series book!!

that rather did my head in for a few seconds :-)



What do you mean? It is the blurb of A Call to Vengeance...

After the disastrous attack on the Manticoran home system by forces unknown, the Royal Manticoran Navy stands on the brink of collapse. A shadowy enemy with the resources to hurl warships across hundreds of light years seeks to conquer the Star Kingdom for reasons unknown, while forces from within Manticore’s own government seek to discredit and weaken the Navy for reasons very much known: their own political gain.

It’s up to officers like Travis Long and Lisa Donnelly to defend the Star Kingdom and the Royal Manticoran Navy from these threats, but the challenge is greater than any they have faced before. Weakened but not defeated, the mercenary forces and their mysterious employer could return at any time, and the anti‑Navy faction within Parliament is growing. The situation becomes even more dire when fresh tragedy strikes the Star Kingdom.

While the House of Winton faces their enemies at home, Travis, Lisa, and the other officers of the Royal Manticoran Navy must reunite with old friends and join new allies to hunt down and eliminate the forces arrayed against them in a galaxy‑spanning conspiracy.

Manticore has learned that the universe is not a safe place, but the Star Kingdom’s enemies are about to learn it's dangerous to mess the Manticore!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Ivitation to discuss Call to Vengeance snippets (spoiler
Post by Bluesqueak   » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:00 pm

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n7axw wrote:
Bluesqueak wrote:
Quite right :D

My only excuse is that I'm reading House of Steel at the moment, so my mind is full of that Roger and that Elizabeth, rather than Edward and the earlier Elizabeth. Roger, of course, is one of the 'great' Wintons.

What I meant was "I'm coming to the conclusion that Edward isn't one of the 'great' Wintons, but rather somebody doing his best in a job he isn't suited to."


I'm not disagreeing with you, but would be interested in hearing how your impression was formed.

Don

_


Good question: a number of little things, really.

Both Crown Prince Edward Winton and Crown Prince Roger Winton (House of Steel) are serving in the Navy - but Edward seems to be using his naval duties to hide from his royal duties. He 'mostly ignore[s] the Palace daily reports'. When he does take an interest in royal political meetings, he's very focused on the Navy's needs.

Crown Prince Edward is a Naval Officer who will someday be King - and would prefer the 'someday' to be as long away as possible. Crown Prince Roger is a King-in-waiting who sees his naval service as an important duty for a King who'll probably have to fight a war. He wants his naval service to strengthen Manticore - in a way that's quite different from Edward.

Edward doesn't seem to realise how the Navy fits strategically within the aims of the Star Kingdom (beyond 'we need it in case pirates or the Andermans come calling'). Compare that with Roger Winton's Letter to the Naval Proceedings Journal from House of Steel, where he goes through the Naval Missions and basically dissects them according to their strategic importance to the Star Kingdom.

It's textev that navy personnel like Senior Chief Osterman think Edward is far from a bad king. But she mentally notes that 'so far Edward hadn't found the backbone to stand up to [Breakwater]'. And she's right; later on, Edward thinks that 'he'd dreaded this confrontation.'

He's also not very good at the 'symbol of the nation' part of the job. When he's got to find some words to bring people together at the Volsung attack, he can't think of a thing to say.

There's also a couple of times when he ignores the fact that Locatelli has command, and orders ships around. He abused his position earlier, as well, when he engineers a three day leave for Prince Richard.

All in all, while he's not a disaster as a King, he's not great. He hasn't got a strategic sense, doesn't seem to grasp the bigger picture, doesn't have the instinct for 'draw the nation together'. He can't seem to balance 'family' against 'nation' in the way that, say, Elizabeth III can. If Manticore was continuing as a sleepy little backwater star nation, he'd be fine. But he's not the king you want when your star nation is about to face massive changes and possible war.
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Re: Ivitation to discuss Call to Vengeance snippets (spoiler
Post by n7axw   » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:05 pm

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Bluesqueak wrote:
Good question: a number of little things, really.

Both Crown Prince Edward Winton and Crown Prince Roger Winton (House of Steel) are serving in the Navy - but Edward seems to be using his naval duties to hide from his royal duties. He 'mostly ignore[s] the Palace daily reports'. When he does take an interest in royal political meetings, he's very focused on the Navy's needs.

Crown Prince Edward is a Naval Officer who will someday be King - and would prefer the 'someday' to be as long away as possible. Crown Prince Roger is a King-in-waiting who sees his naval service as an important duty for a King who'll probably have to fight a war. He wants his naval service to strengthen Manticore - in a way that's quite different from Edward.

Edward doesn't seem to realise how the Navy fits strategically within the aims of the Star Kingdom (beyond 'we need it in case pirates or the Andermans come calling'). Compare that with Roger Winton's Letter to the Naval Proceedings Journal from House of Steel, where he goes through the Naval Missions and basically dissects them according to their strategic importance to the Star Kingdom.

It's textev that navy personnel like Senior Chief Osterman think Edward is far from a bad king. But she mentally notes that 'so far Edward hadn't found the backbone to stand up to [Breakwater]'. And she's right; later on, Edward thinks that 'he'd dreaded this confrontation.'

He's also not very good at the 'symbol of the nation' part of the job. When he's got to find some words to bring people together at the Volsung attack, he can't think of a thing to say.

There's also a couple of times when he ignores the fact that Locatelli has command, and orders ships around. He abused his position earlier, as well, when he engineers a three day leave for Prince Richard.

All in all, while he's not a disaster as a King, he's not great. He hasn't got a strategic sense, doesn't seem to grasp the bigger picture, doesn't have the instinct for 'draw the nation together'. He can't seem to balance 'family' against 'nation' in the way that, say, Elizabeth III can. If Manticore was continuing as a sleepy little backwater star nation, he'd be fine. But he's not the king you want when your star nation is about to face massive changes and possible war.


Good comments, but remember that he really wasn't around long enough to grow into his job before he was gone... but still you make valid points.

Don


-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Ivitation to discuss Call to Vengeance snippets (spoiler
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:08 pm

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Bluesqueak wrote:
Good question: a number of little things, really.

Both Crown Prince Edward Winton and Crown Prince Roger Winton (House of Steel) are serving in the Navy - but Edward seems to be using his naval duties to hide from his royal duties. He 'mostly ignore[s] the Palace daily reports'. When he does take an interest in royal political meetings, he's very focused on the Navy's needs.

Crown Prince Edward is a Naval Officer who will someday be King - and would prefer the 'someday' to be as long away as possible. Crown Prince Roger is a King-in-waiting who sees his naval service as an important duty for a King who'll probably have to fight a war. He wants his naval service to strengthen Manticore - in a way that's quite different from Edward.

Edward doesn't seem to realise how the Navy fits strategically within the aims of the Star Kingdom (beyond 'we need it in case pirates or the Andermans come calling'). Compare that with Roger Winton's Letter to the Naval Proceedings Journal from House of Steel, where he goes through the Naval Missions and basically dissects them according to their strategic importance to the Star Kingdom.

It's textev that navy personnel like Senior Chief Osterman think Edward is far from a bad king. But she mentally notes that 'so far Edward hadn't found the backbone to stand up to [Breakwater]'. And she's right; later on, Edward thinks that 'he'd dreaded this confrontation.'

He's also not very good at the 'symbol of the nation' part of the job. When he's got to find some words to bring people together at the Volsung attack, he can't think of a thing to say.

There's also a couple of times when he ignores the fact that Locatelli has command, and orders ships around. He abused his position earlier, as well, when he engineers a three day leave for Prince Richard.

All in all, while he's not a disaster as a King, he's not great. He hasn't got a strategic sense, doesn't seem to grasp the bigger picture, doesn't have the instinct for 'draw the nation together'. He can't seem to balance 'family' against 'nation' in the way that, say, Elizabeth III can. If Manticore was continuing as a sleepy little backwater star nation, he'd be fine. But he's not the king you want when your star nation is about to face massive changes and possible war.


You are being a bit unfair. Roger wrote that bit in the Proceedings after a number of private briefings from SIS and likely FO intel folks about Haven's build-up. Which was already what, forty years along? Haven was almost ready to pull the trigger on their expansion. His mother, unlike King Michael, didn't allow him to remain ignorant of things, whereas Michael allowed Edward to slide. After Michael told Edward he was going to retire fairly soon, he got with the program. Neither of them really wanted the King-in-Waiting role, though, and until they took his destroyer away, Roger was spending his time chasing pirates, not attending cabinet meetings. And as for seeing his naval service as a prep for a king leading a nation at war? Totally unfair. Nothing in the "daily briefs" given to King Michael had anything to do with an upcoming war, and they already outgunned all their neighbors but Haven. So how, exactly, does he "lack a strategic sense"?

As far as 'standing up to Breakwater' goes, Breakwater has a near majority in the Lords, the kingdom is not very old, and Eliz. I had a lot of children. Breakwater and his allies could have forced a change of monarch if Edward pushed him hard enough; and like that "Duke" that engineered the assassination attempt on Adrienne, some of his cousins would have been happy to take over. At that time, all finance bills and budgets HAVE to start in the Lords; the King doesn't write the budget. To get the Navy funded when the majority was voting it down is a real problem, and I doubt Breakwater allowed anything beyond an emergency appropriations bill to repair the current damages as soon as possible. You are talking politicians taking immediate action; you haven't allowed time for all the hot air to dissipate. Breakwater's Blimp is still manoevering for position.

There weren't "a couple of times" when he interfered with Locatelli; it was once, over the potential use of the destroyers to pretend to be BCs. If it didnt work, the Ship's impellors fail, and the Kingdom dies. He insisted that he be kept in the loop and wanted to vet the deployments. He was Commander in Chief; at war; and a former naval officer, so he knew personally a lot of the people deploying. The situation was new; unexpected; and I notice that Locatelli had already done what was necessary, anyway.

You might also consider that another reason Roger was so good was that the dynasty probably kept diaries; so he gets the benefit of not being the first . . . .

YMMV

Rob
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Re: Ivitation to discuss Call to Vengeance snippets (spoiler
Post by Bluesqueak   » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:43 pm

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Armed Neo-Bob wrote:
You are being a bit unfair. Roger wrote that bit in the Proceedings after a number of private briefings from SIS and likely FO intel folks about Haven's build-up. Which was already what, forty years along? Haven was almost ready to pull the trigger on their expansion. His mother, unlike King Michael, didn't allow him to remain ignorant of things, whereas Michael allowed Edward to slide. After Michael told Edward he was going to retire fairly soon, he got with the program.


Actually, his father tells him he's going to be king fairly soon at the end of A Call To Duty - and Edward is still ignoring the palace's daily briefings at the beginning of A Call To Arms.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:Neither of them really wanted the King-in-Waiting role, though, and until they took his destroyer away, Roger was spending his time chasing pirates, not attending cabinet meetings.



Roger: I know it might help in some ways to have me available to trot out for debates. But .... I can do more good arguing the case from inside the Service. ... someone's got to ... convince the Navy's senior officers it's a good idea.


Not quite chasing pirates, is it?

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:And as for seeing his naval service as a prep for a king leading a nation at war? Totally unfair. Nothing in the "daily briefs" given to King Michael had anything to do with an upcoming war, and they already outgunned all their neighbors but Haven. So how, exactly, does he "lack a strategic sense"?


I didn't say that Edward was failing to prep for war. He failed to prepare for being King. That's textev. He doesn't even bother to read his dispatches from the palace.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:As far as 'standing up to Breakwater' goes, Breakwater has a near majority in the Lords, the kingdom is not very old, and Eliz. I had a lot of children. Breakwater and his allies could have forced a change of monarch if Edward pushed him hard enough; and like that "Duke" that engineered the assassination attempt on Adrienne, some of his cousins would have been happy to take over. At that time, all finance bills and budgets HAVE to start in the Lords; the King doesn't write the budget. To get the Navy funded when the majority was voting it down is a real problem, and I doubt Breakwater allowed anything beyond an emergency appropriations bill to repair the current damages as soon as possible. You are talking politicians taking immediate action; you haven't allowed time for all the hot air to dissipate. Breakwater's Blimp is still manoevering for position.

All true, but again - textev. I've already quote the 'backbone' comment by Osterman. Then there's Winterfell thinking that

By all logic Breakwater should have been booted already.


Armed Neo-Bob wrote:There weren't "a couple of times" when he interfered with Locatelli; it was once, over the potential use of the destroyers to pretend to be BCs. If it didnt work, the Ship's impellors fail, and the Kingdom dies. He insisted that he be kept in the loop and wanted to vet the deployments. He was Commander in Chief; at war; and a former naval officer, so he knew personally a lot of the people deploying. The situation was new; unexpected; and I notice that Locatelli had already done what was necessary, anyway.


The incident in the snippets was the second time. From A Call To Arms:

"Signal Admiral Locatelli that we're sending them out",[Vanguard and Nike] he said. Technically, he knew, Locatelli should be the one making this decision, not the King and the First Lord.


Armed Neo-Bob wrote:You might also consider that another reason Roger was so good was that the dynasty probably kept diaries; so he gets the benefit of not being the first . . . .

YMMV

Rob


Actually, I think its because the Wintons and the Treecats had discovered each other by Roger's time. :) Every time they try to do something selfish, unkingly or stupid, their furry little henchman whacks them on the head...
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