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System and Battle Maps

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Re: System and Battle Maps
Post by kzt   » Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:45 pm

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Walks Alone wrote:I didn't mean to say there isn't a difference, I asked why there has to be a difference? We're not flying in atmosphere, and the main drive units are at both ends of the ship. Why does one end have to be the "front"? It would be far more convenient, say if you had damage at one end of the ship and were chasing someone, to flip over and chase them with the other end.

The whole gravity manipulation part of the honorverse is one of the things you just have to accept that it works like it says. And David says that’s how it works.
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Re: System and Battle Maps
Post by George J. Smith   » Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:00 pm

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Walks Alone wrote:
cthia wrote:What do you mean there's no difference between the bow and the stern? If there isn't, I'll never get a ship! LOL

Seriously, I thought the bow was a much bigger hammerhead.


I didn't mean to say there isn't a difference, I asked why there has to be a difference? We're not flying in atmosphere, and the main drive units are at both ends of the ship. Why does one end have to be the "front"? It would be far more convenient, say if you had damage at one end of the ship and were chasing someone, to flip over and chase them with the other end.


I don't know or remember if anything was said, but I would assume there has to be some difference between the nodes that they only operate in one direction, otherwise as you say it would just be a case of going the other way instead of flipping the ship. (if that makes any sense)
.
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Re: System and Battle Maps
Post by tlb   » Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:56 pm

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cthia wrote:What do you mean there's no difference between the bow and the stern? If there isn't, I'll never get a ship! LOL

Seriously, I thought the bow was a much bigger hammerhead.


Walks Alone wrote:I didn't mean to say there isn't a difference, I asked why there has to be a difference? We're not flying in atmosphere, and the main drive units are at both ends of the ship. Why does one end have to be the "front"? It would be far more convenient, say if you had damage at one end of the ship and were chasing someone, to flip over and chase them with the other end.


George J. Smith wrote:I don't know or remember if anything was said, but I would assume there has to be some difference between the nodes that they only operate in one direction, otherwise as you say it would just be a case of going the other way instead of flipping the ship. (if that makes any sense)

When I was a beginner in this forum; I tried to argue that if Harrington was Hornblower in space, then space ships should be able to go in reverse - since a square rigged ship can do that (although inefficiently). I did not get far and now I just assume it might be due to the way the compensator is built.
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Re: System and Battle Maps
Post by Fox2!   » Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:00 pm

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Walks Alone wrote:
cthia wrote:

I didn't mean to say there isn't a difference, I asked why there has to be a difference? We're not flying in atmosphere, and the main drive units are at both ends of the ship. Why does one end have to be the "front"? It would be far more convenient, say if you had damage at one end of the ship and were chasing someone, to flip over and chase them with the other end.


I don't know or remember if anything was said, but I would assume there has to be some difference between the nodes that they only operate in one direction, otherwise as you say it would just be a case of going the other way instead of flipping the ship. (if that makes any sense)


It's the shape of the wedge. It's broader at the stern than at the bow, and changes in distance from (above and below) the hull of the ship. The wedge itself is not constant, but has a distinct "shape" that changes from front to rear. Why you can't just change the shape of the wedge to change the direction of acceleration, rather than having to flip the entire ship, is a feature of the physics presented by the author.
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Re: System and Battle Maps
Post by glott   » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:01 pm

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cthia wrote:

I didn't mean to say there isn't a difference, I asked why there has to be a difference? We're not flying in atmosphere, and the main drive units are at both ends of the ship. Why does one end have to be the "front"? It would be far more convenient, say if you had damage at one end of the ship and were chasing someone, to flip over and chase them with the other end.


Walks Alone wrote:I don't know or remember if anything was said, but I would assume there has to be some difference between the nodes that they only operate in one direction, otherwise as you say it would just be a case of going the other way instead of flipping the ship. (if that makes any sense)


Fox2! wrote:It's the shape of the wedge. It's broader at the stern than at the bow, and changes in distance from (above and below) the hull of the ship. The wedge itself is not constant, but has a distinct "shape" that changes from front to rear. Why you can't just change the shape of the wedge to change the direction of acceleration, rather than having to flip the entire ship, is a feature of the physics presented by the author.


Yeah, if you would like an idea of the shape of the wedge, there is an illustration of one (and its accompanying sidewalls) in one of the infodumps.

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... 00/1#wedge

But I have no idea why a ship's crew can't flip a switch and accelerate in the opposite direction, with an accompanying reversal of the wedge geometry. Other, of course, than the will of the creator (i.e. the author). :)
*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*

"...the ability of an entrenched, bureaucratic military to ignore anything which challenges its fundamental working assumptions simply cannot be exaggerated." - David Weber
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Re: System and Battle Maps
Post by Daryl   » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:46 pm

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All good Science Fiction (which this certainly is), has an initial handwavium set of assumptions then builds on them in a consistent manner. I do have an occasional chuckle at the keener enthusiasts arguing about minor matters when the whole physics isn't consistent with ours.
Work out the energy required to accellerate a fleet of SDs at 500gs for hours. Doesn't detract from the story, I doubt if anything could.
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Re: System and Battle Maps
Post by cthia   » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:57 am

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Daryl wrote:All good Science Fiction (which this certainly is), has an initial handwavium set of assumptions then builds on them in a consistent manner. I do have an occasional chuckle at the keener enthusiasts arguing about minor matters when the whole physics isn't consistent with ours.
Work out the energy required to accellerate a fleet of SDs at 500gs for hours. Doesn't detract from the story, I doubt if anything could.

Pfft, I gave up long ago when missiles reached .9C. It is why I don't hold a calculator when I read. It would destroy the enjoyment of storyline. For me. I was shocked to realize that some aspect of the missiles DO conform to physics, over in one of the other threads discussing "barricade."

I've long since determined that I cannot read sci-fi with a slide rule in my pocket. It is why my sister hates sci-fi.

"I waste too much time going 'Wait, what?'" Says sis.

Another sister says "Sci-fi tries my patience and insults my intelligence. Are there any that won't?"

"The Mars Trilogy."

"Ok, that was better. Any more like that?"

"Sorry, not that I think you'd like."

"So that's a one off?"

" :oops: "

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: System and Battle Maps
Post by cthia   » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:02 am

cthia
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Walks Alone wrote:
cthia wrote:What do you mean there's no difference between the bow and the stern? If there isn't, I'll never get a ship! LOL

Seriously, I thought the bow was a much bigger hammerhead.


I didn't mean to say there isn't a difference, I asked why there has to be a difference? We're not flying in atmosphere, and the main drive units are at both ends of the ship. Why does one end have to be the "front"? It would be far more convenient, say if you had damage at one end of the ship and were chasing someone, to flip over and chase them with the other end.
George J. Smith wrote:I don't know or remember if anything was said, but I would assume there has to be some difference between the nodes that they only operate in one direction, otherwise as you say it would just be a case of going the other way instead of flipping the ship. (if that makes any sense)


I thought it was because of the time it takes to generate a wedge. It takes about 30 minutes? So flipping is better, or you'd lose 30 minutes of accel/decel waiting to generate the same wedge on the other end. As opposed to 45 minutes if the impellers weren't already hot??? shrug

Obviously I'm wrong, or someone else would had said so.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: System and Battle Maps
Post by Brigade XO   » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:10 pm

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I suppose it is possible that the nominal bow of the ship had a different and more varied sensor array for scanning forward, after all you are heading in that direction really really fast. Certainly it makes reasonable sense that the wedge's are shaped to both smooth the movement (dealing with gravity gradients) and amplify it's ability to move the ship in one direction over others if that improves it's speed. And that is the way RFC has written it (big smile).

From a practical matter of the crew and operations, you need an orientation both within the ship and relative to the ship. That applies to ships (on water or under it) trains, aircraft, current spacecraft, missiles, even cars and trucks.
Since we are dealing with ships, RFC is using naval language conventions:

bow (the front, usualy shaped to cut the water smoothly to make for easier passage,

stern (other end from the bow,

portside (on your left when facing the bow),

starboard (on your right when facing the bow)

dorsal (top- look up away from the water to the sky -like the classic above the water of a
shark on the surface) and

ventral- the bottom of of a ship sitting on water- where the "vents" are on fish for discharging biological waste )

You really have to know where you are in the ship and where things other than the ship (like enemy aircraft or missiles or ship) things are in relation to the ship to work effectively. It does take time to learn but can soon become internalized and normal. It also orients you to where your are and where you need to be or pay attention too.
Where things are located inside or outside your ship depends on physics (and plot) but you normally have to balance out weight and pay attention to how big stuff is inside so where it is places is important as well as being able do things like use weapons....which we have following the classic 18the and 19th century "broadside" arrangement in varioius arrangement along the port and starboard sides of the hull rather than the turrent arrangemetn you see with things like the USS Monitor in the Civil War or most 20th and 21st century warships. I'll stop now...too much detail.
Everyting is in relation to YOUR ship unless otherwise specificaly stated.
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Re: System and Battle Maps
Post by cthia   » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:25 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:I suppose it is possible that the nominal bow of the ship had a different and more varied sensor array for scanning forward, after all you are heading in that direction really really fast. Certainly it makes reasonable sense that the wedge's are shaped to both smooth the movement (dealing with gravity gradients) and amplify it's ability to move the ship in one direction over others if that improves it's speed. And that is the way RFC has written it (big smile).

From a practical matter of the crew and operations, you need an orientation both within the ship and relative to the ship. That applies to ships (on water or under it) trains, aircraft, current spacecraft, missiles, even cars and trucks.
Since we are dealing with ships, RFC is using naval language conventions:

bow (the front, usualy shaped to cut the water smoothly to make for easier passage,

stern (other end from the bow,

portside (on your left when facing the bow),

starboard (on your right when facing the bow)

dorsal (top- look up away from the water to the sky -like the classic above the water of a
shark on the surface) and

ventral- the bottom of of a ship sitting on water- where the "vents" are on fish for discharging biological waste )

You really have to know where you are in the ship and where things other than the ship (like enemy aircraft or missiles or ship) things are in relation to the ship to work effectively. It does take time to learn but can soon become internalized and normal. It also orients you to where your are and where you need to be or pay attention too.
Where things are located inside or outside your ship depends on physics (and plot) but you normally have to balance out weight and pay attention to how big stuff is inside so where it is places is important as well as being able do things like use weapons....which we have following the classic 18the and 19th century "broadside" arrangement in varioius arrangement along the port and starboard sides of the hull rather than the turrent arrangemetn you see with things like the USS Monitor in the Civil War or most 20th and 21st century warships. I'll stop now...too much detail.
Everyting is in relation to YOUR ship unless otherwise specificaly stated.


Very logical post. Brigade strikes again!

What your post brings to mind is the mention of Honor's kinesthetic sense. Which may be upset with no human notion of front and back. In her fight against that big bruiser, it may have ended very differently with joystick and tick at hand if her kinesthetic sense had gone off the rails, due to unconventional ship orientation...

"Which means he should be where I want him jusssst about... now! Wait, what, where, uh oh..."

We humans do need the human element's frame of reference.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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