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What is Earth's government

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Re: What is Earth's government
Post by Weird Harold   » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:12 am

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ldwechsler wrote:I don't believe Lynx or anyone from Talbott or Silesia became part of the Star KINGDOM'S government. San Martin actually joined the kingdom.

The others joined as sort of a Commonwealth for Talbott and as protectorates for Silesia. The Talbott Quadrant had a government on Spindle.


Lynx applied and was accepted to the SKM before the negotiations for the Talbott Quadrant began. There isn't a great deal of information about the terms under which they were admitted, but Lynx was definitely part of the SKM before the SEM was formed.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

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Re: What is Earth's government
Post by saber964   » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:07 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:I don't believe Lynx or anyone from Talbott or Silesia became part of the Star KINGDOM'S government. San Martin actually joined the kingdom.

The others joined as sort of a Commonwealth for Talbott and as protectorates for Silesia. The Talbott Quadrant had a government on Spindle.


Lynx applied and was accepted to the SKM before the negotiations for the Talbott Quadrant began. There isn't a great deal of information about the terms under which they were admitted, but Lynx was definitely part of the SKM before the SEM was formed.



According to RFC the Lynxians basically sent there request to join the SKM back through the MWJ with the Harvest Joy.
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Re: What is Earth's government
Post by ldwechsler   » Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:04 pm

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saber964 wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:I don't believe Lynx or anyone from Talbott or Silesia became part of the Star KINGDOM'S government. San Martin actually joined the kingdom.

The others joined as sort of a Commonwealth for Talbott and as protectorates for Silesia. The Talbott Quadrant had a government on Spindle.


Lynx applied and was accepted to the SKM before the negotiations for the Talbott Quadrant began. There isn't a great deal of information about the terms under which they were admitted, but Lynx was definitely part of the SKM before the SEM was formed.



According to RFC the Lynxians basically sent there request to join the SKM back through the MWJ with the Harvest Joy.[/quote]

I don't think they have representation in the Manticore Legislature. The info goes back so far I don't recall where it was. But you know the opposition would go nuts over all of this. If each of the new planets had only one person in the Lords they might never get a majority.
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Re: What is Earth's government
Post by kzt   » Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:52 pm

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Lynx is part of the SKM IIRC.
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Re: What is Earth's government
Post by Bluesqueak   » Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:01 pm

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kzt wrote:Lynx is part of the SKM IIRC.


From Pearls of Weber (http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... ngton/45/1):
Lynx applied for membership in the SKM immediately. For all practical purposes, you can think of them as having sent the request back aboard the survey ship that discovered the Terminus. Since the vote was damned near unanimous, and since the Manty policy was to secure sovereigny over termini anyway, it went through immediately on the High Ridge watch. (I thought I'd touched on this in WoH, but I don't have time right now to go back and check.) At any rate, Lynx was granted membership in the SKM on the same basis as San Martin -- that is, exactly the same terms as Manticore, Sphynx, Gryphon, and San Martin -- and will be directly represented in the SKM's existing Parliament. The rest of the cluster applied for annexation several months after Lynx, only after Van Dort had time to get his annexation vote organized and carried. And since it applied as a multi-system territorial unit, everyone understood that the arrangements for its admission to the SKM (or the SEM, or whatever it becomes) would have to be different from that of the existing "core worlds" of the SKM. Hence Lynx is not represented at the Constitutional Convention which is deciding the basis on which the TC will join the SKM; it's already a member of the SKM and, as such, has adopted the provisions of the existing Manticoran Constitution with the same slight federalism overlay San Martin has. The admission terms for the rest of the clust with probably (tum, te, tum, te, tum) be significantly different from that. The map showing a single system and Terminus in a single symbol is in error, although the stars in question are so close together that a separate symbol for each would be a problem. Administratively, oversight and management for the Lynx Terminus may wind up being located in the Lynx System, or it may simply be located in a deep space facility in the terminus system itself. I've deliberately allowed the Manties (and other people living in the Honorverse) to be a bit sloppy in their terminology where things like this are concerned, just as we tend to be in our own present day world.
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Re: What is Earth's government
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:09 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:I don't believe Lynx or anyone from Talbott or Silesia became part of the Star KINGDOM'S government. San Martin actually joined the kingdom.

The others joined as sort of a Commonwealth for Talbott and as protectorates for Silesia. The Talbott Quadrant had a government on Spindle.


Weird Harold wrote:Lynx applied and was accepted to the SKM before the negotiations for the Talbott Quadrant began. There isn't a great deal of information about the terms under which they were admitted, but Lynx was definitely part of the SKM before the SEM was formed.


saber964 wrote:According to RFC the Lynxians basically sent there request to join the SKM back through the MWJ with the Harvest Joy.


ldwechsler wrote:I don't think they have representation in the Manticore Legislature. The info goes back so far I don't recall where it was. But you know the opposition would go nuts over all of this. If each of the new planets had only one person in the Lords they might never get a majority.



ldwechsler,

BlueSqueak got it in first. :D

You are compressing the timeline too much in Talbott; and Lynx was annexed along with the terminus, as part of the Kingdom.

In the wake of High Ridge's downfall, Willie Alexander called for general elections. During HR's administration, San Martin had not yet been seated in the Commons or the Lords; not giving the Centrist the additional clout was one of HR's main reasons for delaying the elections, iirc. But Lynx was annexed during the High Ridge administration, so the Alexander government's elections would have also covered Lynx. rfc would likely say it wasn't germaine to the storyline at that point, so he sort of glossed over it.

And rfc did make it a bit confusing in WoH by conflating Lynx with the rest of the Talbott Cluster after Thunderbolt. But Lynx was annexed as part of the Kingdom before the end of the book; the rest of the Cluster convened a constitutional convention at Spindle that lasted until after Monica; by the time the Quadrant existed (SotS), Lynx and San Martin would have both been in the Kingdom's government for a year or so.Although, Lynx would have likely been seated just in the Commons for now.

Some Text:

[quote=”House of Steel E-Arc, Section :Astrography”]
The Star Kingdom’s transformation into the Star Empire began with the annexation of the Basilisk system in 1865 PD. Following the first phase of the Havenite Wars, Trevor’s Star sought annexation in 1914, and the Lynx System sought membership in 1919 following the discovery of the Lynx Terminus of the Manticoran Wormhole Junction. These star systems, all of which share access to the Junction, are collectively referred to as the “Old Star Kingdom” and form a single territorial unit within the Star Empire.

[/quote]



[quote=”War of Honor, Chap 34”]

"Yes, Ma'am. I did a little research when Rochelle identified Lynx, too. According to the most recent data in our files, which is probably at least ten or fifteen T-years out of date, the system population is around two-point-three billion. It looks to me as if economically they're about where the Graysons were before they joined the Alliance, or maybe not quite that far along, although their base tech level is probably a bit higher. From what I've found so far, Lynx seems to be one of the two or three more heavily populated systems in the cluster, but the average seems to work out to around one-point-five billion."
"And Lynx is only about fourteen hours from this terminus," Thatcher pointed out.[/quote]
[quote=”War of Honor, Chap 38”]
"Not today's, no. But I imagine the trend lines are pretty much what they've been being."
"By and large," the Prime Minister agreed. "The number of people who say they believe there's an immediate military threat from Haven has dropped almost another full percentage point. Approval for the annexation of Lynx is holding steady at almost eighty-five percent. For that matter, those who say they would approve the annexation of the entire Talbott Cluster are up above seventy percent.
[/quote]
[quote=”War of Honor, Chap 54”]

Again, Janacek found himself forced to concede the Prime Minister's point. The Government's official decision to grant the Talbott Cluster's request to be annexed to the Star Kingdom—contingent, of course, upon the approval of the full Parliament—had proven immensely popular. [/quote]


[quote=”War of Honor, Chap 59”]

"And along the way, we become the Star Empire of Manticore," Honor replied with a troubled expression.
"I don't see that we have any choice," White Haven said. "And what with Trevor's Star and the Talbott Cluster, we're already moving in that direction."
[/quote]
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Re: What is Earth's government
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:03 pm

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Bluesqueak wrote:
From Pearls of Weber (http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... ngton/45/1):
Lynx applied for membership in the SKM immediately. For all practical purposes, you can think of them as having sent the request back aboard the survey ship that discovered the Terminus. Since the vote was damned near unanimous, and since the Manty policy was to secure sovereigny over termini anyway, it went through immediately on the High Ridge watch. (I thought I'd touched on this in WoH, but I don't have time right now to go back and check.) At any rate, Lynx was granted membership in the SKM on the same basis as San Martin -- that is, exactly the same terms as Manticore, Sphynx, Gryphon, and San Martin -- and will be directly represented in the SKM's existing Parliament. The rest of the cluster applied for annexation several months after Lynx, only after Van Dort had time to get his annexation vote organized and carried. And since it applied as a multi-system territorial unit, everyone understood that the arrangements for its admission to the SKM (or the SEM, or whatever it becomes) would have to be different from that of the existing "core worlds" of the SKM. Hence Lynx is not represented at the Constitutional Convention which is deciding the basis on which the TC will join the SKM; it's already a member of the SKM and, as such, has adopted the provisions of the existing Manticoran Constitution with the same slight federalism overlay San Martin has. The admission terms for the rest of the clust with probably (tum, te, tum, te, tum) be significantly different from that. The map showing a single system and Terminus in a single symbol is in error, although the stars in question are so close together that a separate symbol for each would be a problem. Administratively, oversight and management for the Lynx Terminus may wind up being located in the Lynx System, or it may simply be located in a deep space facility in the terminus system itself. I've deliberately allowed the Manties (and other people living in the Honorverse) to be a bit sloppy in their terminology where things like this are concerned, just as we tend to be in our own present day world.

IIRC Manticore currently has what could be categorized as 5 levels of belonging

1) Member of the Star Kingdom of Manticore - Manticore, Sphynx, Gryphon, San Martin, Lynx
2) Member of the Star Empire of Manticore - all the above plus the systems within the Talbot cluster that joined
3) Annexed by Manticore - Basilisk System
4) Protectorate of Manticore - their half of Silesia[1]
5) Termini owned by Manticore, associated with independent or foreign systems, Beowulf's, Gregor's, etc.

[1] Presumably those will move towards joining the SEM, but it's possible that after stable, reasonably non-corrupt, local system governments have become established that they might instead petition for plebiscites on independence.
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Re: What is Earth's government
Post by saber964   » Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:57 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:quote="Bluesqueak"]

From Pearls of Weber (http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... ngton/45/1):
Lynx applied for membership in the SKM immediately. For all practical purposes, you can think of them as having sent the request back aboard the survey ship that discovered the Terminus. Since the vote was damned near unanimous, and since the Manty policy was to secure sovereigny over termini anyway, it went through immediately on the High Ridge watch. (I thought I'd touched on this in WoH, but I don't have time right now to go back and check.) At any rate, Lynx was granted membership in the SKM on the same basis as San Martin -- that is, exactly the same terms as Manticore, Sphynx, Gryphon, and San Martin -- and will be directly represented in the SKM's existing Parliament. The rest of the cluster applied for annexation several months after Lynx, only after Van Dort had time to get his annexation vote organized and carried. And since it applied as a multi-system territorial unit, everyone understood that the arrangements for its admission to the SKM (or the SEM, or whatever it becomes) would have to be different from that of the existing "core worlds" of the SKM. Hence Lynx is not represented at the Constitutional Convention which is deciding the basis on which the TC will join the SKM; it's already a member of the SKM and, as such, has adopted the provisions of the existing Manticoran Constitution with the same slight federalism overlay San Martin has. The admission terms for the rest of the clust with probably (tum, te, tum, te, tum) be significantly different from that. The map showing a single system and Terminus in a single symbol is in error, although the stars in question are so close together that a separate symbol for each would be a problem. Administratively, oversight and management for the Lynx Terminus may wind up being located in the Lynx System, or it may simply be located in a deep space facility in the terminus system itself. I've deliberately allowed the Manties (and other people living in the Honorverse) to be a bit sloppy in their terminology where things like this are concerned, just as we tend to be in our own present day world.

IIRC Manticore currently has what could be categorized as 5 levels of belonging

1) Member of the Star Kingdom of Manticore - Manticore, Sphynx, Gryphon, San Martin, Lynx
2) Member of the Star Empire of Manticore - all the above plus the systems within the Talbot cluster that joined
3) Annexed by Manticore - Basilisk System
4) Protectorate of Manticore - their half of Silesia[1]
5) Termini owned by Manticore, associated with independent or foreign systems, Beowulf's, Gregor's, etc.

[1] Presumably those will move towards joining the SEM, but it's possible that after stable, reasonably non-corrupt, local system governments have become established that they might instead petition for plebiscites on independence.[/quote]


You forgot Endicott/Masada IIRC it's protectorate/military occupation after White Haven conquered the system.
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Re: What is Earth's government
Post by Brigade XO   » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:39 pm

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3) Annexed by Manticore - Basilisk System
4) Protectorate of Manticore - their half of Silesia.

I could be wrong but shouldn't that be Basilisk System as a Proterctorate and their half of Silesia annexed?

Manticore is holding Basilisk "in trust" for it's indigenous population though exactly the mechanics of all of that development off planet (etc) is going to fingure into the final outcome is a bit murky. The Stilties are probably a long way from joining the rest of the galaxy.
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Re: What is Earth's government
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:12 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:3) Annexed by Manticore - Basilisk System
4) Protectorate of Manticore - their half of Silesia.

I could be wrong but shouldn't that be Basilisk System as a Proterctorate and their half of Silesia annexed?

Manticore is holding Basilisk "in trust" for it's indigenous population though exactly the mechanics of all of that development off planet (etc) is going to fingure into the final outcome is a bit murky. The Stilties are probably a long way from joining the rest of the galaxy.


This goes back to the problem of Basilisk in the first book. Basilisk System was annexed with the terminus; the Liberals and Conservatives went nuts over, respectively, the aliens of Medusa and imperialist expansion (particularly so close to the Peeps). So Parliament annexed the system but took the planet Medusa as a "protectorate." This came up in House of Steel's novella, also; infant Elizabeth was given the title Duchess of Basilisk. After the action there, the Centrists were able to amend the original act of annexation to include the planet. Hence, later, you get Dame Estelle Matsuko given the title "Baroness Medusa" with "Lands" being an income derived from an interest in orbital infrastructure, iirc.

Silesia is very vague; Sarnow is the Royal Governor, as well as Commander of 9th Fleet. But the Confederate government is done. System governments are left (mostly) in place, but have to graft both the Manticore Commercial Code, and Manticore's Bill of Rights to their individual systems' legal systems. There is supposed to be a referendum held in each system in 50 years to determine whether the locals wish to join Manticore permanently, join another polity, remain a protectorate, or become independent. Of course, if they organize themselves into a multi-system polity (ala Talbott) they could join the Star Empire as a federal unit of the Empire sooner than that.

Rob
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