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What is Earth's government

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Re: What is Earth's government
Post by Fox2!   » Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:54 am

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Theemile wrote:
Besides, we all know that twinkies are a standard part of Havenite Marine rations :lol:


And they all have manufacture dates of March 2, AD2018. And are still fresh. At least for certain values of "fresh". :lol:
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Re: What is Earth's government
Post by ldwechsler   » Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:23 am

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Fox2! wrote:
Theemile wrote:
Besides, we all know that twinkies are a standard part of Havenite Marine rations :lol:


And they all have manufacture dates of March 2, AD2018. And are still fresh. At least for certain values of "fresh". :lol:



I like the twinkies, although I prefer Hostess chocolate cupcakes. Shouldn't they get a play here?

But let's not spend too much time trying to bend things to past world history. If anything, earth's government is like Washington, DC on steroids. The League government is the 800 pound gorilla and everyone answers to it.

And it is corrupt because the bosses like it that way.
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Re: What is Earth's government
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:22 pm

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Bluesqueak wrote:Manticore certainly isn't the UK, though I'm fairly convinced that a number of the original colonists were from the UK, and probably also from the Netherlands. The whole 'let's rewrite the Constitution as a Constitutional Monarchy' has the feeling of people who would find the idea of promoting people to the Lords natural, and would see a constitutional monarchy as perfectly democratic - because that's the system they came from. :)

A nation that developed from an idea of Britain, or a memory of Britain. But not Britain-in-space.

However, what is very British is the emphasis on trade, even for nobles, and the discovery that your merchant adventurers/explorers have somehow managed to land you with a sodding Empire... :twisted:

Well House of Steel does say, of the 125,000 settlers on the [iJJason[/i] "Sixty percent of the colonists were Western Europeans, with most of the remainder drawn from the North American Federation, the Caribbean, and a very small minority of ethnic Ukrainians"

So likely there were quite a few from the UK and Netherlands. Though the emphasis on trade seems to have come later; and practically thrust upon them once the wormhole junction was discovered.
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Re: What is Earth's government
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:22 am

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Bluesqueak wrote:
Manticore certainly isn't the UK, though I'm fairly convinced that a number of the original colonists were from the UK, and probably also from the Netherlands. The whole 'let's rewrite the Constitution as a Constitutional Monarchy' has the feeling of people who would find the idea of promoting people to the Lords natural, and would see a constitutional monarchy as perfectly democratic - because that's the system they came from. :)


Nah, they were just chiselling weasels. The memory of Britain, though, is a good point.



Bluesqueak wrote:However, what is very British is the emphasis on trade, even for nobles, and the discovery that your merchant adventurers/explorers have somehow managed to land you with a sodding Empire... :twisted:


Venice? Genoa? The Portuguese? The Spanish? The Dutch?

I am currently reading a book about the Roman Empire and the Indian Ocean trade; the author's premise is a description of how the trade from Egypt's ports on the Red Sea were fundamental to the development of the Empire, and funded most of its military expansionism. . . .

Rob
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Re: What is Earth's government
Post by ldwechsler   » Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:54 am

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Armed Neo-Bob wrote:
Bluesqueak wrote:
Manticore certainly isn't the UK, though I'm fairly convinced that a number of the original colonists were from the UK, and probably also from the Netherlands. The whole 'let's rewrite the Constitution as a Constitutional Monarchy' has the feeling of people who would find the idea of promoting people to the Lords natural, and would see a constitutional monarchy as perfectly democratic - because that's the system they came from. :)


Nah, they were just chiselling weasels. The memory of Britain, though, is a good point.



Bluesqueak wrote:However, what is very British is the emphasis on trade, even for nobles, and the discovery that your merchant adventurers/explorers have somehow managed to land you with a sodding Empire... :twisted:


Venice? Genoa? The Portuguese? The Spanish? The Dutch?

I am currently reading a book about the Roman Empire and the Indian Ocean trade; the author's premise is a description of how the trade from Egypt's ports on the Red Sea were fundamental to the development of the Empire, and funded most of its military expansionism. . . .

Rob


Why are we having this discussion? The story is the story. Yes, RFC borrowed from Hornblower at the beginning of the series. And then he backed out. Particularly after Eric Flint brought in the Sollies and Mesa as bad guys.

And yes he likes to too a few historical bits in (WEB DuHavel, for example). But we are in a different universe and he's moving towards the end. He will end as he wills it.
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Re: What is Earth's government
Post by pappilon   » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:42 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:
Why are we having this discussion? The story is the story. Yes, RFC borrowed from Hornblower at the beginning of the series. And then he backed out. Particularly after Eric Flint brought in the Sollies and Mesa as bad guys.

And yes he likes to too a few historical bits in (WEB DuHavel, for example). But we are in a different universe and he's moving towards the end. He will end as he wills it.



Book comes out in 8 months. What else, besides A Call to Vengeance do we have to do?

I think the MAlign was always there to be brought out, but in the next arc with Honor's kids. Honor was also supposed to be killed off somewhere. Oh well, sometimes books take on a life of their own despite the Author's best efforts.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Re: What is Earth's government
Post by Bluesqueak   » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:52 am

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Armed Neo-Bob wrote:
Bluesqueak wrote:
Manticore certainly isn't the UK, though I'm fairly convinced that a number of the original colonists were from the UK, and probably also from the Netherlands. The whole 'let's rewrite the Constitution as a Constitutional Monarchy' has the feeling of people who would find the idea of promoting people to the Lords natural, and would see a constitutional monarchy as perfectly democratic - because that's the system they came from. :)


Nah, they were just chiselling weasels. The memory of Britain, though, is a good point.



Bluesqueak wrote:However, what is very British is the emphasis on trade, even for nobles, and the discovery that your merchant adventurers/explorers have somehow managed to land you with a sodding Empire... :twisted:


Venice? Genoa? The Portuguese? The Spanish? The Dutch?

I am currently reading a book about the Roman Empire and the Indian Ocean trade; the author's premise is a description of how the trade from Egypt's ports on the Red Sea were fundamental to the development of the Empire, and funded most of its military expansionism. . . .

Rob


Yeah, I did mention the Netherlands. Spain's nobles were notorious for avoiding actual work (and trade). Portugal doesn't have a monarchy, neither does Venice or Genoa, so the colonists from there would be unlikely to go 'Hey, constitutional monarchy! That would work' - at least, I don't think they would without someone else from a constitutional monarchy persuading them. :-)

But, most importantly, the phrase 'very British' means that X characteristic is very characteristic of British culture, not that no other countries have that characteristic. : D Drinking tea is 'very British', but I believe that some other countries have been known to imbibe. ;)
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Re: What is Earth's government
Post by ldwechsler   » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:12 am

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Bluesqueak wrote:
Armed Neo-Bob wrote:
Manticore certainly isn't the UK, though I'm fairly convinced that a number of the original colonists were from the UK, and probably also from the Netherlands. The whole 'let's rewrite the Constitution as a Constitutional Monarchy' has the feeling of people who would find the idea of promoting people to the Lords natural, and would see a constitutional monarchy as perfectly democratic - because that's the system they came from. :)


Nah, they were just chiselling weasels. The memory of Britain, though, is a good point.



Bluesqueak wrote:However, what is very British is the emphasis on trade, even for nobles, and the discovery that your merchant adventurers/explorers have somehow managed to land you with a sodding Empire... :twisted:


Venice? Genoa? The Portuguese? The Spanish? The Dutch?

I am currently reading a book about the Roman Empire and the Indian Ocean trade; the author's premise is a description of how the trade from Egypt's ports on the Red Sea were fundamental to the development of the Empire, and funded most of its military expansionism. . . .

Rob


Yeah, I did mention the Netherlands. Spain's nobles were notorious for avoiding actual work (and trade). Portugal doesn't have a monarchy, neither does Venice or Genoa, so the colonists from there would be unlikely to go 'Hey, constitutional monarchy! That would work' - at least, I don't think they would without someone else from a constitutional monarchy persuading them. :-)

But, most importantly, the phrase 'very British' means that X characteristic is very characteristic of British culture, not that no other countries have that characteristic. : D Drinking tea is 'very British', but I believe that some other countries have been known to imbibe. ;)[/quote]


The government is more reminiscent of John Locke's proposed constitution for the Carolinas. Basically run by aristos. Originally the kings were first among equals. That has changed.

And in the long run the roots don't really count except that they affect current conditions. Remember that there have been real changes recently. The biggest being transferring a lot of power to the Commons.

And if you really think that the Commons will simply accept minority government based on a heredity-based Lords, you are incorrect. Keep in mind that the Liberals, a key component, have been split and the largest group now works well with the Centrists. The Conservatives have gotten a good beating down...quite a few in trouble. And Progressives who seem mainly to be opportunists may be drawn to the majority.

The ending of the war with Haven will also create changes. Clearly, based on Cauldron the minority is essentially against it and that will hurt them.
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Re: What is Earth's government
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:45 am

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ldwechsler wrote:

The government is more reminiscent of John Locke's proposed constitution for the Carolinas. Basically run by aristos. Originally the kings were first among equals. That has changed.

And in the long run the roots don't really count except that they affect current conditions. Remember that there have been real changes recently. The biggest being transferring a lot of power to the Commons.

And if you really think that the Commons will simply accept minority government based on a heredity-based Lords, you are incorrect. Keep in mind that the Liberals, a key component, have been split and the largest group now works well with the Centrists. The Conservatives have gotten a good beating down...quite a few in trouble. And Progressives who seem mainly to be opportunists may be drawn to the majority.

The ending of the war with Haven will also create changes. Clearly, based on Cauldron the minority is essentially against it and that will hurt them.


Aside from shifting control of financing from the Lords to the Commons, there have been substantial changes in the makeup of Manticore's political landscape. I would have liked to see something about the new Manties--San Martin and Lynx should have seats in the Commons, and possibly a few seats in the Lords. The population of Lynx is about 2 billion, isn't it? So about the same as San Martin, or Manticore (planet). So some considerable numbers in the new Commons.

Of course, I would also like more information on Silesia, too, but it is not happening on the big screen. HoS didn't provide a system (or sector) list. After all, if you eliminate piracy and encourage local growth, drastically reduce a tax burden (Confederate taxes), move a formerly gray economic sector (smuggling) by replacing local customs officials with Naval officers inspecting vessels--putting that part of the economy onto the tax base--what sort of economic boom do you get? And, how does Manticore (and the Andermani) profit?

IIRC, there was something around a half dozen of the local systems where Sarnow had to replace the system government/police; that leaves some 28 systems to start having a local economic miracle. .. . .

In HAE, there was also a freighter from someplace--Trianon Combine? that was supposed to be a Confederate "protectorate." How many of those were there, and what is happening to them under the new management?

Fodder for anthologies, I guess. :D

Rob
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Re: What is Earth's government
Post by ldwechsler   » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:04 am

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Armed Neo-Bob wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:

The government is more reminiscent of John Locke's proposed constitution for the Carolinas. Basically run by aristos. Originally the kings were first among equals. That has changed.

And in the long run the roots don't really count except that they affect current conditions. Remember that there have been real changes recently. The biggest being transferring a lot of power to the Commons.

And if you really think that the Commons will simply accept minority government based on a heredity-based Lords, you are incorrect. Keep in mind that the Liberals, a key component, have been split and the largest group now works well with the Centrists. The Conservatives have gotten a good beating down...quite a few in trouble. And Progressives who seem mainly to be opportunists may be drawn to the majority.

The ending of the war with Haven will also create changes. Clearly, based on Cauldron the minority is essentially against it and that will hurt them.


Aside from shifting control of financing from the Lords to the Commons, there have been substantial changes in the makeup of Manticore's political landscape. I would have liked to see something about the new Manties--San Martin and Lynx should have seats in the Commons, and possibly a few seats in the Lords. The population of Lynx is about 2 billion, isn't it? So about the same as San Martin, or Manticore (planet). So some considerable numbers in the new Commons.

Of course, I would also like more information on Silesia, too, but it is not happening on the big screen. HoS didn't provide a system (or sector) list. After all, if you eliminate piracy and encourage local growth, drastically reduce a tax burden (Confederate taxes), move a formerly gray economic sector (smuggling) by replacing local customs officials with Naval officers inspecting vessels--putting that part of the economy onto the tax base--what sort of economic boom do you get? And, how does Manticore (and the Andermani) profit?

IIRC, there was something around a half dozen of the local systems where Sarnow had to replace the system government/police; that leaves some 28 systems to start having a local economic miracle. .. . .

In HAE, there was also a freighter from someplace--Trianon Combine? that was supposed to be a Confederate "protectorate." How many of those were there, and what is happening to them under the new management?

Fodder for anthologies, I guess. :D

Rob



I don't believe Lynx or anyone from Talbott or Silesia became part of the Star KINGDOM'S government. San Martin actually joined the kingdom.

The others joined as sort of a Commonwealth for Talbott and as protectorates for Silesia. The Talbott Quadrant had a government on Spindle.

The San Martin people were determined Centrists. That was one reason why the High Ridge government did not want elections. After the elections, there would have been San Martin members in the Lords who would probably have tipped the balance.
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