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What is Earth's government

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Re: What is Earth's government
Post by ldwechsler   » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:33 am

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Armed Neo-Bob wrote:
Brigade XO wrote:3) Annexed by Manticore - Basilisk System
4) Protectorate of Manticore - their half of Silesia.

I could be wrong but shouldn't that be Basilisk System as a Proterctorate and their half of Silesia annexed?

Manticore is holding Basilisk "in trust" for it's indigenous population though exactly the mechanics of all of that development off planet (etc) is going to fingure into the final outcome is a bit murky. The Stilties are probably a long way from joining the rest of the galaxy.


This goes back to the problem of Basilisk in the first book. Basilisk System was annexed with the terminus; the Liberals and Conservatives went nuts over, respectively, the aliens of Medusa and imperialist expansion (particularly so close to the Peeps). So Parliament annexed the system but took the planet Medusa as a "protectorate." This came up in House of Steel's novella, also; infant Elizabeth was given the title Duchess of Basilisk. After the action there, the Centrists were able to amend the original act of annexation to include the planet. Hence, later, you get Dame Estelle Matsuko given the title "Baroness Medusa" with "Lands" being an income derived from an interest in orbital infrastructure, iirc.

Silesia is very vague; Sarnow is the Royal Governor, as well as Commander of 9th Fleet. But the Confederate government is done. System governments are left (mostly) in place, but have to graft both the Manticore Commercial Code, and Manticore's Bill of Rights to their individual systems' legal systems. There is supposed to be a referendum held in each system in 50 years to determine whether the locals wish to join Manticore permanently, join another polity, remain a protectorate, or become independent. Of course, if they organize themselves into a multi-system polity (ala Talbott) they could join the Star Empire as a federal unit of the Empire sooner than that.

Rob


Good to have clarification. So, although I was wrong (I had not seen the infodump), essentially Lynx was the only part of the Cluster taken into the Star Kingdom.

They will, of course, have some impact on Manticore politics...although we don't know if they have representatives in the Lords (they should, since San Martin did). They are also likely to be Centrists.

Added to San Martin, these will help keep Centrists in power far longer than might be the case. Of course, the disastrous run of the High Ridge government probably will assist.

Remember that the three main groups were Conservatives, Liberals, and Progressives. Only a rump group of Liberals are left working with them. And Progs basically were only interested in power. Why agree to lack of it for generations?

I would guess that the Lords will be the only real home for the Conservatives and that at least some have alrady switched from the Conservatives. After, all High Ridge fell because the Lords turned against him.

I would bet that if they had not, after Thunderbolt the Commons would have demanded an end to domination by the Lords.
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Re: What is Earth's government
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:32 am

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ldwechsler wrote:
Good to have clarification. So, although I was wrong (I had not seen the infodump), essentially Lynx was the only part of the Cluster taken into the Star Kingdom.

They will, of course, have some impact on Manticore politics...although we don't know if they have representatives in the Lords (they should, since San Martin did). They are also likely to be Centrists.

Added to San Martin, these will help keep Centrists in power far longer than might be the case. Of course, the disastrous run of the High Ridge government probably will assist.

Remember that the three main groups were Conservatives, Liberals, and Progressives. Only a rump group of Liberals are left working with them. And Progs basically were only interested in power. Why agree to lack of it for generations?

I would guess that the Lords will be the only real home for the Conservatives and that at least some have alrady switched from the Conservatives. After, all High Ridge fell because the Lords turned against him.

I would bet that if they had not, after Thunderbolt the Commons would have demanded an end to domination by the Lords.

Even as it was didn't the new San Martin (and I also assume Lynx) members of Lords vote in favor of the Crown's proposal to move the power of the purse (creating of the budget) from Lords over the Commons?

That is a significant power shift with the SKM government. Now the people who can refuse to fund things have to face the electorate afterwards. (But presumably the Lords and Crown can still provide moderating influence to keep them from veering too far the other way and just spending on bread and circuses)
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Re: What is Earth's government
Post by Theemile   » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:39 am

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ldwechsler wrote:<snip>

Remember that the three main groups were Conservatives, Liberals, and Progressives. Only a rump group of Liberals are left working with them. And Progs basically were only interested in power. Why agree to lack of it for generations?

I would guess that the Lords will be the only real home for the Conservatives and that at least some have alrady switched from the Conservatives. After, all High Ridge fell because the Lords turned against him.

I would bet that if they had not, after Thunderbolt the Commons would have demanded an end to domination by the Lords.


There were 5 major party groups - You Forgot the Centrists, and the Crown Loyalists, who in the 1900 storyline voted similarly and formed the Cromarty Coalition, but that was not always the case.

And, there were always the Independents (which by definitions is not a party, but still a substancial group, even if they have no central controls, and the "New Men" - a group of ~50 lords who had very mercenary tendencies, looking out primarily for their interests.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: What is Earth's government
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:04 pm

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Theemile wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:<snip>

Remember that the three main groups were Conservatives, Liberals, and Progressives. Only a rump group of Liberals are left working with them. And Progs basically were only interested in power. Why agree to lack of it for generations?

I would guess that the Lords will be the only real home for the Conservatives and that at least some have alrady switched from the Conservatives. After, all High Ridge fell because the Lords turned against him.

I would bet that if they had not, after Thunderbolt the Commons would have demanded an end to domination by the Lords.


There were 5 major party groups - You Forgot the Centrists, and the Crown Loyalists, who in the 1900 storyline voted similarly and formed the Cromarty Coalition, but that was not always the case.

And, there were always the Independents (which by definitions is not a party, but still a substancial group, even if they have no central controls, and the "New Men" - a group of ~50 lords who had very mercenary tendencies, looking out primarily for their interests.


He did remember the Centrists (second paragraph) but there hasn't been much distinction between them and the Crown Loyalists (except those pesky Highlanders); and none of the others amounted to much unless the votes in the Lords were dead even. Also, the entire election was covered at the end of WoH in a few paragraphs related to "who's running the Government now?, Besides Willie?"

Given the fact that the Lords are limited to a 10% change in seats in any election, splitting that between the Lynxans and the San Martinos (who had been waiting 5 years already to be seated), the Lynxans might have opted to wait to the next election to seat people permanently in the Lords.

I think they had a republic before, without an aristocracy; they may decide they can wait three years or so until their folks at home decide who should be lifers in the Lords. Either way, the book said 80% of the Lords voted to allow the Commons to share the power of the Purse with the Commons, so the newcomers didn't change to totals much. But their representation in the Commons ought to mean some real changes in overall politics going down the road.

One of the big issues for the Manti electorate was not disturbing a social matrix that had been very successful for them, though. They were pretty comfortable with the San Martinos already; it may be that the Lynxans are smart enough to want to move slowly in asserting themselves in the Kingdom, especially while their planet is benefiting so much from their new membership. After all, they got a share of the Lynx transit fees, subsidized access to prolong, access to the Kingdom's university system, access to the civil service, access to enormous investment--and pretty much kept their own local government and parties in place at home.

Of course, it isn't important to the plot at this time. . .
Although, now that I think about it, that election would have been 1919? So sometime next year- if the "last book" goes that far forward. :D

Rob
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Re: What is Earth's government
Post by Brigade XO   » Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:37 pm

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It is probable that the difficulties that crop in Silesia in the Manticorian half will be more of a problem than those that show up for the Andramani.
IAE is more likely to just crush anything that smacks of rebellion or subversion. They have been doing this longer, they have apparently taken more than a couple of systems essentilay by force and then imposed rule. Successfully if we are to believe what we have been told. Andermani cleaning house is going to be much quicker and rougher. Break our laws and....well you are out of circulation and who knows what the various penalties and how far reaching they are. I'm not saying they are going to shoot people out-of-hand. Lock them up after a finding of judgement (also not saying how that accomplished) and they might see the light of day 30 years later? Possible.

Manticore is seems to be giving more rope. Clearly it sounded like if those who were not reasonably quickly found guilty of major things (particularly violating major Confederacy and Local laws while in positions of power) and outright criminals like pirates etc are being given a chance to get with the program and follow the Manticorian statutes. We the readers are being give the impression that the majority of the populations in both sides of Silesia are just people who would like to have good lives, be successful and stay out of things like crime and political subversion
Theoretcialy either the Andermai or Mantirorian systems will give them that after the worst (or perhaps most) of the high level corruption and other problems are delt with. Either system appears to be much more effective at just governing and equaly appling laws that the Confederation which didn't help as it didn't deal with the spread or rise of corruption and other problems down to Systems levels.

Even 50 years is not that long a time in a Prolong society but keeping your nose clean (and fingers out of subversive politics and criminal violations) will let them keep being cut slack. Screwing up, however, probably won't end well.
We'll see in the next series set some 20+ years in the future :)
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Re: What is Earth's government
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:48 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:It is probable that the difficulties that crop in Silesia in the Manticorian half will be more of a problem than those that show up for the Andramani.
IAE is more likely to just crush anything that smacks of rebellion or subversion. They have been doing this longer, they have apparently taken more than a couple of systems essentilay by force and then imposed rule. Successfully if we are to believe what we have been told. Andermani cleaning house is going to be much quicker and rougher.
SNIP


The thing about the Andies fishing in "troubled waters" and needing to spend time building (or re-building) the economy is well taken. But a firm hand with domestic violence needs to be paired with a sensitivity toward local feelings and concerns. Their administrators can't run roughshod over the locals, or they just create antipathy toward the regime.

The Andies were very capable in intelligence matters; I think they were likely just as deft in handling local politics. My guess is they wait until they can come sailing over the horizon as rescuers, and create genuine gratitude from the locals. Which is, by and large, what happened in Silesia.

Rob
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