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Tamaguchi's biggest Mistake in SoV

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Re: Tamaguchi's biggest Mistake in SoV
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:18 pm

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Hegemon wrote:Even odder than that, 8 BCs and 8 DDs control a total of 500 Cataphract-C missiles each (62 missile per BC+DD), even though Admiral Filareta's SDs could control no more than 40 Cataphract-C missiles each (427 SDs could control 17000 missiles). It seems odd even for SLN a BC/DD pair can jointly control half again as many missiles as a SD.

Good point. Though remember the SLN SDs, despite having a lot of tubes for their tonnage, were not missile oriented ships (the glacial cyclic rate of their tubes is probably indirectly due to this). They were designed to harass and enemy battle line with missiles until they closed to the decisive energy range.

A BC, and certainly the lighter units, should be more missile oriented anyway

Plus:
a) Destroyers are small and nimble enough to spin to use both broadsides in a delayed launch double pumped missile salvo. So they'd inherently need at least twice as many control links per broadside as they have tubes.

b) The BC and DD designs appear to be significantly newer than the Scientist/Vega designs, so in addition to being inherently more missile focused were designed with knowledge of somewhat more capable missiles.

c) Frontier Force uses ships up to BC size in actual combat, and would presumably have been providing design feedback on newer classes based on actual combat results.

d) Since missiles are their primary offensive weapon they presumably devote a greater percentage of their broadside area to redundant fire control links - to preserve that offensive capability in the fact of battle damage (since you can't armor a control link's antenna

If you have a class with additional redundant control links you can (to the extend your tactical computers aren't a bottleneck) utilize that previously spare 'hot spare' capacity to control more missiles from your pods.



Still, now that you point it out, I am surprised that they could control, on average, ~50% more missiles than the SDs, More missiles per broadside area area, sure. But 50% more absolute missiles! Wow.
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Re: Tamaguchi's biggest Mistake in SoV
Post by HungryKing   » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:17 pm

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I'd note that Nevada class is very new, being part of the Fleet 2000 program, and is a Battle Fleet design. It probably was designed with the possibility of pod warfare in mind, at least in the sense of having extra tractor mounts and definitely had significant consideration to the laserhead threat environment. So the class possessing slightly more that a fifty percent redundancy in control links, aka forty eight to fifty, is perfectly plausible.
Jonathan_S wrote:
Hegemon wrote:Even odder than that, 8 BCs and 8 DDs control a total of 500 Cataphract-C missiles each (62 missile per BC+DD), even though Admiral Filareta's SDs could control no more than 40 Cataphract-C missiles each (427 SDs could control 17000 missiles). It seems odd even for SLN a BC/DD pair can jointly control half again as many missiles as a SD.

Good point. Though remember the SLN SDs, despite having a lot of tubes for their tonnage, were not missile oriented ships (the glacial cyclic rate of their tubes is probably indirectly due to this). They were designed to harass and enemy battle line with missiles until they closed to the decisive energy range.

A BC, and certainly the lighter units, should be more missile oriented anyway

Plus:
a) Destroyers are small and nimble enough to spin to use both broadsides in a delayed launch double pumped missile salvo. So they'd inherently need at least twice as many control links per broadside as they have tubes.

b) The BC and DD designs appear to be significantly newer than the Scientist/Vega designs, so in addition to being inherently more missile focused were designed with knowledge of somewhat more capable missiles.

c) Frontier Force uses ships up to BC size in actual combat, and would presumably have been providing design feedback on newer classes based on actual combat results.

d) Since missiles are their primary offensive weapon they presumably devote a greater percentage of their broadside area to redundant fire control links - to preserve that offensive capability in the fact of battle damage (since you can't armor a control link's antenna

If you have a class with additional redundant control links you can (to the extend your tactical computers aren't a bottleneck) utilize that previously spare 'hot spare' capacity to control more missiles from your pods.



Still, now that you point it out, I am surprised that they could control, on average, ~50% more missiles than the SDs, More missiles per broadside area area, sure. But 50% more absolute missiles! Wow.
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Re: Tamaguchi's biggest Mistake in SoV
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:29 pm

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drinksmuchcoffee wrote:The fact that task force commanders are not clairvoyant is precisely why anybody with brains would leave a picket outside the hyper limit when entering a system where you don't know what opposition, if any, you would be facing.

I am surprised that it wouldn't be SOP.


It would be for any military that actually understood how to fight. That does not include the SLN.
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Re: Tamaguchi's biggest Mistake in SoV
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:38 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:If Byng (but then he was an idiot) then Crandall and then Fillerta didn't leave anybody outside the relevent system as a sentinel or possible courier to report on what happend (or provide an overview plus copies of transmissions) for the official record or watch their backs, why should anybody expect Tamaguchi to do so? If he had done it he might or might not have been thanked (because he would have gotten at least some hard data from SLN warships home to be analyzed) but it is not something SLN sees to have in it's tactical doctrine.


Who knows if Filareta did or not? The Havenite force plugged the hole behind them, if there had been a messenger he was likely within energy range of their wall of battle. If they found a messenger they would have assigned a ship to keep an eye on him if hostilities went up. It would have been a minor enough thing that it's omission from the book would be no surprise.
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Re: Tamaguchi's biggest Mistake in SoV
Post by Maldorian   » Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:53 am

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Hegemon wrote:
Even odder than that, 8 BCs and 8 DDs control a total of 500 Cataphract-C missiles each (62 missile per BC+DD), even though Admiral Filareta's SDs could control no more than 40 Cataphract-C missiles each (427 SDs could control 17000 missiles). It seems odd even for SLN a BC/DD pair can jointly control half again as many missiles as a SD.

Good point. Though remember the SLN SDs, despite having a lot of tubes for their tonnage, were not missile oriented ships (the glacial cyclic rate of their tubes is probably indirectly due to this). They were designed to harass and enemy battle line with missiles until they closed to the decisive energy range.

A BC, and certainly the lighter units, should be more missile oriented anyway

Plus:
a) Destroyers are small and nimble enough to spin to use both broadsides in a delayed launch double pumped missile salvo. So they'd inherently need at least twice as many control links per broadside as they have tubes.

b) The BC and DD designs appear to be significantly newer than the Scientist/Vega designs, so in addition to being inherently more missile focused were designed with knowledge of somewhat more capable missiles.

c) Frontier Force uses ships up to BC size in actual combat, and would presumably have been providing design feedback on newer classes based on actual combat results.

d) Since missiles are their primary offensive weapon they presumably devote a greater percentage of their broadside area to redundant fire control links - to preserve that offensive capability in the fact of battle damage (since you can't armor a control link's antenna

If you have a class with additional redundant control links you can (to the extend your tactical computers aren't a bottleneck) utilize that previously spare 'hot spare' capacity to control more missiles from your pods.



Still, now that you point it out, I am surprised that they could control, on average, ~50% more missiles than the SDs, More missiles per broadside area area, sure. But 50% more absolute missiles! Wow.


What is with the battle of Torch? The Maya Forces use also Solarian Battle Cruiser. They replace some of their missle tubes (if I remember correct, replacing energy weapon would be better) with addoditional fire control links. If the solarian BC have so much Control Links at their basic configuration, that modification wouldn´t be nessasary.
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Re: Tamaguchi's biggest Mistake in SoV
Post by Eagleeye   » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:03 am

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Maldorian wrote:
Hegemon wrote:
Even odder than that, 8 BCs and 8 DDs control a total of 500 Cataphract-C missiles each (62 missile per BC+DD), even though Admiral Filareta's SDs could control no more than 40 Cataphract-C missiles each (427 SDs could control 17000 missiles). It seems odd even for SLN a BC/DD pair can jointly control half again as many missiles as a SD.

Good point. Though remember the SLN SDs, despite having a lot of tubes for their tonnage, were not missile oriented ships (the glacial cyclic rate of their tubes is probably indirectly due to this). They were designed to harass and enemy battle line with missiles until they closed to the decisive energy range.

A BC, and certainly the lighter units, should be more missile oriented anyway

Plus:
a) Destroyers are small and nimble enough to spin to use both broadsides in a delayed launch double pumped missile salvo. So they'd inherently need at least twice as many control links per broadside as they have tubes.

b) The BC and DD designs appear to be significantly newer than the Scientist/Vega designs, so in addition to being inherently more missile focused were designed with knowledge of somewhat more capable missiles.

c) Frontier Force uses ships up to BC size in actual combat, and would presumably have been providing design feedback on newer classes based on actual combat results.

d) Since missiles are their primary offensive weapon they presumably devote a greater percentage of their broadside area to redundant fire control links - to preserve that offensive capability in the fact of battle damage (since you can't armor a control link's antenna

If you have a class with additional redundant control links you can (to the extend your tactical computers aren't a bottleneck) utilize that previously spare 'hot spare' capacity to control more missiles from your pods.



Still, now that you point it out, I am surprised that they could control, on average, ~50% more missiles than the SDs, More missiles per broadside area area, sure. But 50% more absolute missiles! Wow.


What is with the battle of Torch? The Maya Forces use also Solarian Battle Cruiser. They replace some of their missle tubes (if I remember correct, replacing energy weapon would be better) with addoditional fire control links. If the solarian BC have so much Control Links at their basic configuration, that modification wouldn´t be nessasary.


As far as I can remember, the solarian BCs delivered to the PNE were all Indefatiguables - and older flights of this class, to boot. Can't even remember if they were equipped with Halo. So, any modification they could get was as necessary as hell ;)
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Re: Tamaguchi's biggest Mistake in SoV
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:29 am

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Maldorian wrote:What is with the battle of Torch? The Maya Forces use also Solarian Battle Cruiser. They replace some of their missle tubes (if I remember correct, replacing energy weapon would be better) with addoditional fire control links. If the solarian BC have so much Control Links at their basic configuration, that modification wouldn´t be nessasary.


The Maya forces used "Marksman" class "BCs" which are only remotely related to the SLN BCs they are listed as in the TOE. (Table of Equipment)

A Marksman is essentially half of a SD(P) with the missiles launched from the modular arsenal ships that are the other half of a Mayan "SD(P)" I don't recall all of the details off-hand, but the Marksman-class ships don't really need on-board missile tubes, they just need enough to show on the paperwork for the SLN that they're in the "BC" classification. The Mayan arsenal ships are closer to the RMN's FSV Charles Ward in their modular construction than they are to the standard SLN missile colliers. (Maybe inspired the RMN's FSVs?)

In no way can the Mayan forces in the Battle of Torch be used as a guide to what the SLN deploys.

Maya is building a semi-modern, interim, force that they can get the SLN to pay for and carry on the books as "normal" SLN equipment. As soon as Erewhon is geared up to build SD(P)s they'll be deviating more openly from SLN equipment. (some of Maya's new-model ships are carried on the books, for SLN consumption, as Erewhon's ships manned by Mayan/SLN "instructors.")
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Re: Tamaguchi's biggest Mistake in SoV
Post by cthia   » Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:00 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:Forgot about the control links, but didn't they have a breakthrough in control links with one of their new platforms?
Are you thinking about Aegis? That's defensive only - the SLN ripped out a couple broadside energy mounts and replaced them with additional CM control links. (And RFC has said in the past a CM control link isn't compatible with an offensive missile, it's smaller and had a much shorter working range; a tradeoff to let you carry enough of them)

But that's the only fire control 'breakthrough' I remember the League making.


I mean, in theory, there's probably nothing stopping them from pulling a few more energy mounts and slapping an extra offensive control link or two in - but we haven't read that they have; and that wouldn't make a major difference unless they fairly well gutted their energy range teeth.


Indeed, I was thinking of Aegis. A totally defensive system 'eh, drats? Surely they can upgrade Aegis fairly quicky, and easily. Factor in their ability to tow so many pods, multiplied by so many ships and some inadequately supported Manty CO somewhere is going to get a little reaming.

Perhaps Uncompromising Honor will have the SLN showcase some significant upgrades to fuel several worthwhile battles, even if it is a day late and a book short.


How exactly can Solarian ships carry so many more pods w/o significant degradation of accel? ...

Because slow, stubborn mules have no problem with extra weight. It's the fast racehorses that have to watch their saddle weight. LOL

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Tamaguchi's biggest Mistake in SoV
Post by Potato   » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:21 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
Maldorian wrote:What is with the battle of Torch? The Maya Forces use also Solarian Battle Cruiser. They replace some of their missle tubes (if I remember correct, replacing energy weapon would be better) with addoditional fire control links. If the solarian BC have so much Control Links at their basic configuration, that modification wouldn´t be nessasary.


The Maya forces used "Marksman" class "BCs" which are only remotely related to the SLN BCs they are listed as in the TOE. (Table of Equipment)

A Marksman is essentially half of a SD(P) with the missiles launched from the modular arsenal ships that are the other half of a Mayan "SD(P)" I don't recall all of the details off-hand, but the Marksman-class ships don't really need on-board missile tubes, they just need enough to show on the paperwork for the SLN that they're in the "BC" classification. The Mayan arsenal ships are closer to the RMN's FSV Charles Ward in their modular construction than they are to the standard SLN missile colliers. (Maybe inspired the RMN's FSVs?)

In no way can the Mayan forces in the Battle of Torch be used as a guide to what the SLN deploys.

Maya is building a semi-modern, interim, force that they can get the SLN to pay for and carry on the books as "normal" SLN equipment. As soon as Erewhon is geared up to build SD(P)s they'll be deviating more openly from SLN equipment. (some of Maya's new-model ships are carried on the books, for SLN consumption, as Erewhon's ships manned by Mayan/SLN "instructors.")


Uhh...no. The Marksman-class are CLs roughly the size of a Star Knight. By no means are they anything close to a SD(P).
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Re: Tamaguchi's biggest Mistake in SoV
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:31 pm

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Potato wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:The Maya forces used "Marksman" class "BCs" which are only remotely related to the SLN BCs they are listed as in the TOE. (Table of Equipment)

A Marksman is essentially half of a SD(P) with the missiles launched from the modular arsenal ships that are the other half of a Mayan "SD(P)"


Uhh...no. The Marksman-class are CLs roughly the size of a Star Knight. By no means are they anything close to a SD(P).


OK, CLs rather than BCs, but read what I wrote: They are HALF an SD(P); the tactical section half. The magazines and pods are launched from the modular arsenal ships.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

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