Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: saber964 and 12 guests

Tamaguchi's biggest Mistake in SoV

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Tamaguchi's biggest Mistake in SoV
Post by Theemile   » Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:51 pm

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3149
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: Toledo, Ohio USA

Yes, he made a few of them, but most were simply due to lack of knowledge of what he was actually facing.

But his biggest mistake was losing sight of his REAL mission. He even mentioned it several time prior to the battle. His true mission was to face the Manties and return with sensor data about their systems. He realized he would probably lose ships doing so, but the Cataphract –C2s and A2s he carried in pods and tubes were considered big enough levelers that he might be able to take on small RMN forces with a reasonable chance of success.

So what was that mistake? Once he decided he was going to face the RMN force (remember, he had enough velocity he could have blown through the system without Tremaine’s main force being able to overhaul him, should he have decided to), he slowed his force to take on Tremaine’s DDM force. What he should have done is dispatch 2 DDs on opposing exit vectors while continuing to accelerate to the hyperlimit. That way they were the information relays to collect the sensor logs from the Battlecruiser force, and get them out if Tamaguchi was wrong. Remember - the sensor recordings are the most important – no SLN force has survived to get a full set of battle recordings back to command. 2 Destroyers would be more difficult to intercept, yet have a marginal effect on Tamaguchi’s capabilities.

So how long will it be before the Sollies realize that they need sensor pickets? We have not seen any of them use this tactic, and it’s killing them.


Thoughts? Any other major things he missed or should have done?
Last edited by Theemile on Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Tamaguchi's biggest Mistake in SoV
Post by kzt   » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:19 pm

kzt
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 9425
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

It's all plot at this point. You can see the strings.
Top
Re: Tamaguchi's biggest Mistake in SoV
Post by BobG   » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:44 pm

BobG
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 283
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:23 pm
Location: Westford, MA

If he had dispatched a couple of DDs to report on the battle, Ginger's ships sent back to the limit would have picked them off. No point.

One he decided to engage Scotty, it was done.

OTOH, with the Lorelei decoys, Scotty could have launched them as he cut his drives at even longer range, and launched the pods with his ships 50-60M klicks or so out. If he could convince the Sollies that the Lorelei's were his ships, he wouldn't possibly have needed Barricade.

I'm not convinced that he shouldn't have tried to kill all the Sollie ships, either, to protect his people. Suppose their missiles penetrated Barricade, and a couple of dozen hit his ships? Things might have been very different then.

-- Bob G
SF & Fantasy: The only things better than Chocolate.
Top
Re: Tamaguchi's biggest Mistake in SoV
Post by Theemile   » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:18 pm

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3149
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: Toledo, Ohio USA

BobG wrote:If he had dispatched a couple of DDs to report on the battle, Ginger's ships sent back to the limit would have picked them off. No point.

One he decided to engage Scotty, it was done.

OTOH, with the Lorelei decoys, Scotty could have launched them as he cut his drives at even longer range, and launched the pods with his ships 50-60M klicks or so out. If he could convince the Sollies that the Lorelei's were his ships, he wouldn't possibly have needed Barricade.

I'm not convinced that he shouldn't have tried to kill all the Sollie ships, either, to protect his people. Suppose their missiles penetrated Barricade, and a couple of dozen hit his ships? Things might have been very different then.

-- Bob G


That's why Scotty rolled wedges against the first launch, The small ships were light enough to flip up at the last second, after multiple CM launches and rely on the LAC' pdlcs for the last few seconds of intercept.

With 2 DDs on different vectors, it would have been more difficult to intercept - and they had enough velocity that they could have cut drives, alter vector and rely on stealth to get to the hyperlimit. They wouldn't have had a chance - but it still should have been attempted. And remember, Tamaguchi could have dispersed all his DDs, and some would have made it out.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Tamaguchi's biggest Mistake in SoV
Post by saber964   » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:25 pm

saber964
Admiral

Posts: 2278
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:41 pm
Location: Spokane WA USA

The problem with this is the fact that Tamaguchi had no destroyers. IIRC he had one squadron of Battle Cruisers and a squadron of Light Cruisers. Plus all of the RMN forces are faster then the SLN ship by a factor of 40-50%.
Top
Re: Tamaguchi's biggest Mistake in SoV
Post by drinksmuchcoffee   » Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:19 pm

drinksmuchcoffee
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 108
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:51 am

What would have stopped Tremaine from sending a LAC or two screaming after each CL (or DD)?

A smarter move on Tamaguchi's part would have been to have one of his light units go dark immediately after coming out of hyper.
Top
Re: Tamaguchi's biggest Mistake in SoV
Post by munroburton   » Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:57 pm

munroburton
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1951
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:16 am
Location: Scotland

drinksmuchcoffee wrote:A smarter move on Tamaguchi's part would have been to have one of his light units go dark immediately after coming out of hyper.


Agreed. By the time Tamaguchi realised how deep the cesspit really was, it was too late for him to detach any ships - nothing could escape. It had to be done when they left hyperspace or very shortly afterwards - like Chatterjee did at New Tuscany.

Spindle responded very quickly to the destruction of Chatterjee's three ships. Tamaguichi's CO won't be hearing anything for a long time.
Top
Re: Tamaguchi's biggest Mistake in SoV
Post by Theemile   » Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:27 pm

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3149
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: Toledo, Ohio USA

saber964 wrote:The problem with this is the fact that Tamaguchi had no destroyers. IIRC he had one squadron of Battle Cruisers and a squadron of Light Cruisers. Plus all of the RMN forces are faster then the SLN ship by a factor of 40-50%.


Read again, Tamaguchi had War Harvests(DD) and Nevada's (BC). And the max Accel difference between a DD and a CL, is less than 10 Gs.

As for running them down with a LAC,Tremaine's command determined if Tamaguchi ran and Tremaine went all out at 740gs, Tamaguchi would still cross the hyperlimit 108 million Km ahead of Tremaine.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Tamaguchi's biggest Mistake in SoV
Post by cthia   » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:03 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 9894
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Tamaguchi's mistake, is the same mistake that every Solarian naval force makes. Arrogance, again, of the institutional blend.

Paraphrasing along...

"We're getting our heads handed to us. It doesn't make sense what happened to Crandall or Filareta. There's a monster in the Manty woods. Be careful. These people can beat me."

Not immediately adopting the posture that went along with that sentiment is Tamaguchi's mistake. There's always this...

(paraphrasing)...

"Why is he (in this case Tremaine) doing that? He must think he can beat me. Maybe he can. I don't think so, but he seems to. His logic seems flawed, but Manties aren't stupid. So what..."

Arrogance. He was still thinking in terms of matching up, by the book, with the unknown. You cannot formulate a plan when you do not know what you are facing. Every force that takes on King Kong never packs for the trip because they do not know what they are facing.

Solarian COs are still trying to add 1 + 1. And it doesn't add up to 2 with the Manties.

If he would have known to be afraid, be really afraid, then his mission would have been first and foremost...

'GET SENSOR DATA AT ALL COSTS. And the costs will be high.'

Then his eye would have been on his mission, because his thoughts would have been focused, as they are when you KNOW, expect, that you are about to die.

It is the same with Honor's death rides. Focused intensity in the face of death.

But arrogance and pride was his ultimate mistake. Tamaguchi still believes the bygone paradigms of how ship sizes match up. And he knew he had the more powerful force, by the book. It came down to tubes. So did Crandall, so did Filareta. He wanted to figure this thing out, because there is no way the Manties should have been able to defeat Filareta and Crandall without catching them up in some sort of "trick or treat." And the goto trick blamed by all Solarians is the deceptive "pod warfare" or "hidden forces." Even Tamaguchi wasn't prepared to accept that Filareta and Crandall were straight-up, beaten. And that was ridiculous. But if he, "could be a bit more cautious I'll come out on top. No ships could be hidden by the Manties and they can't be carrying a lot of pods with their accel. And I've got these Cataphracts. As long as I don't fall for any Manty tricks" (like Crandal, and Filareta), "I can best them."

What he should have done is kept two ships running for the limit. One stopping right at the limit. Then one following Tamaguchi back in, keeping the range open half way between "his main force and the Manties" and "his ship at the limit." Close enough to get a good read on the Manty launches and ready to communicate it to the ship waiting at the limit. A communications relay if shit hits the fan upwind.

BUT! "I can beat the Manties if I keep my eyes open and fail to fall for any Manty tricks."

When you still think that your force is the stronger, on paper, everything's just gone out the crapper, and your paper has just become the cheap 1-ply kind that makes you end up with a finger lodged in your bum. And screwing yourself.

"What's in the woods killing our ships? Tricks or Treats?"


TREATS! Enough to go around.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Tamaguchi's biggest Mistake in SoV
Post by cthia   » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:14 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 9894
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

They can't understand that getting a locket of Sampson's hair is gonna cost 'em. But if they don't get it, they're doomed...

And that the most important resource to bring to the party, are a few sacrificial lambs and kamikazes, since they're fresh out of common sense.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top

Return to Honorverse