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Remaining holes in SLN intel

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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Weird Harold   » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:39 am

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ldwechsler wrote:We can expect the first major invasion of Brazil when? A helicopter carrier can handle a real lot of missions that are not particularly war-related.


I'm not conversant with South American politics, so I can't say when the invasion fleet will arrive. :D

Brazil's need for a carrier is easily within the capabilities possible with a helicopter carrier -- maritime/customs patrol, SAR, etc.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Theemile   » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:33 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
Theemile wrote:The only other VSTOL solutions are MV-22s and F-35s, neither of which are readily abundant.


You're forgetting the Soviet V/STOL carrier planes. I don't recall the designations offhand, but MiG, Sukhoi, and I think Lavoskian(sp) all have V/STOL/Carrier planes in their catalogues

ETA: And Yakovlev - the only (best known) vertical landing plane the Soviets built.

The Indian Navy is flying MiGs from their carrier, IIRC.



The Mig-29K is the primary Russian Carrier flier, but it requires a ski ramp and barrier landing. I believe there is a Frogfoot variant as well, but it too requires a ski-ramp and barrier - neither of which the Harrier, Yak-38, F-35B, and MV-22 require, and a helicopter carrier would be limited to.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by cthia   » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:33 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:I would guess these helicopter carriers will generally be used in conjunction with aircraft from either large carriers or land.


The specific case that prompted the discussion of helicopter carriers is the Brazilian Navy replacing its only Aircraft Carrier with a single Helicopter Carrier. The Brazilians didn't have any carrier based AEW planes so they have always worked with land-based AEW and Patrol. Since they only have one carrier, they're NOT going to be working in conjunction with large carriers.

Other nations will have different reasons for commissioning helicopter carriers; the US, for example, uses them as floating Marine bases under the Air Superiority umbrella of fleet carriers' fixed wing and ASW shield of other battle group ships.

Thanks for explaining that for me. Having only a 'copter carrier was what befuddled me. But hey, it only has to make sense to them. Also, it may have been a lot cheaper to build and may fit their needs better.

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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Weird Harold   » Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:28 pm

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cthia wrote:Also, it may have been a lot cheaper to build and may fit their needs better.


Actually "cheaper to buy" would be the case. The carrier is "previously owned" by the Royal Navy (actually the Royal Navy's former flagship, HMS Ocean.)
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:33 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:The specific case that prompted the discussion of helicopter carriers is the Brazilian Navy replacing its only Aircraft Carrier with a single Helicopter Carrier. The Brazilians didn't have any carrier based AEW planes so they have always worked with land-based AEW and Patrol. Since they only have one carrier, they're NOT going to be working in conjunction with large carriers.

Other nations will have different reasons for commissioning helicopter carriers; the US, for example, uses them as floating Marine bases under the Air Superiority umbrella of fleet carriers' fixed wing and ASW shield of other battle group ships.

And the UK Invincible-class "through deck cruisers" of the Cold War were designed to support the NATO anti-submarine efforts in case of war. They allow numerous anti-submarine helicopters to be operated and maintained. They only carried a few Harriers to defend against (or prey on) Soviet maritime patrol aircraft. And you don't need all that high performance an interceptor to go after a <600 mph Tu-95 Bear.

Similarly I believe the JSDF's helicopter destroyers are primarily anti-submarine units, but also capable of using the helicopters for humanitarian or peacekeeping missions.

The US Marine corp, as already noted, uses their for airborne or air/amphibious assault. And the UK's HMS Ocean served a similar role.


Those do seem to be the two main purposes for helicopter carriers. Then depending on each operator's needs or desires they may also carry a few VSTOL aircraft for self-defense and/or ground attack - but that's secondary to their main mission of supporting a large number of simultaneous helicopter for anti-submarine, transport, or ground attack purposes.

You obviously can't use them for amphibious assault against a peer power without something else providing at minimum air denial, but anti-submarine work can often occur under land based air cover or far enough out that neither you or your enemy can reach with attack aircraft. But participating in peacekeeping often doesn't require air superiority - nor does humanitarian operations.
Not every naval ship has be to built to survive all out war with a peer; not even your most expensive ships.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by kzt   » Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:49 pm

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the class’s hangar and elevators were built to dimensions that could accommodate the F-35B and the MV-22 Osprey—Japan already has MV-22s on order. Even the class’s flight deck can supposedly withstand the heat and pressure generated by the F-35’s scorching exhaust. The official also says the carriers’ deck would likely be modified with a ski-jump if the F-35B were acquired.

https://blog.usni.org/posts/2018/02/28/ ... w-on-class
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by cthia   » Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:55 pm

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Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:16 pm

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That's a US designed AH-64D (or possibly E) Apache Longbow attack chopper. The unit atop its rotor mast is in fact a small radar - a millimeter wave fire control radar, allowing the chopper's radar guided hellfire anti-tank missiles to be used in a fire and forget mode. (And it's high elevation allows the chopper to lock onto, and engage, targets while the rotor and body of the chopper are still below a tree line or ridge line)

The sea search or air warning radars carried on helicopters are larger, and are usually designed to hang below the chopper body while in use, so the blades and body don't create a giant blind spot below. For example see this image of the UK's Westland Sea King AEW where the radar is that large object protruding off it's starboard side. That swivels down when in flight so the radar dome is below the body.

For the V-22 people have talked about using a similar radar system pivoted down off the aft loading ramp, or possible lowered through the winch hatch in the floor.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by cthia   » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:54 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:

That's a US designed AH-64D (or possibly E) Apache Longbow attack chopper. The unit atop its rotor mast is in fact a small radar - a millimeter wave fire control radar, allowing the chopper's radar guided hellfire anti-tank missiles to be used in a fire and forget mode. (And it's high elevation allows the chopper to lock onto, and engage, targets while the rotor and body of the chopper are still below a tree line or ridge line)

The sea search or air warning radars carried on helicopters are larger, and are usually designed to hang below the chopper body while in use, so the blades and body don't create a giant blind spot below. For example see this image of the UK's Westland Sea King AEW where the radar is that large object protruding off it's starboard side. That swivels down when in flight so the radar dome is below the body.

For the V-22 people have talked about using a similar radar system pivoted down off the aft loading ramp, or possible lowered through the winch hatch in the floor.


Thanks a bunch for the post. Very informative. I tried to find a pic of the Sea King in flight. Finally.

The question that's nagging me now, is what helicopter does the nine US 'copter carriers carry? Depends upon mission, or a mix?

I always wondered how helicopters can detect subs. Then there's this.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by cthia   » Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:01 pm

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The world’s 10 best anti-submarine warfare (ASW) helicopters.

Aha! Dipping sonar!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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