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Remaining holes in SLN intel

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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by cthia   » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:29 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:The other thing you do lose over a CATOBAR carrier is the ability to fly fixed wing AWACs. There are helicopter based systems, but they aren’t as far seeing or powerful as an E-2 Hawkeye, nor can they patrol for as long or as far from the carrier - so your long range raid detection is nowhere near as capable.


Without air superiority aircraft to control, you don't really need the "AC" part of AWACs. A ring of destroyers as part of your carrier battle group can stay on EWR (Early Warning Radar) station far longer than an E-2 can orbit. So you don't really need the "AW" half either.

Brazil has long-range ground-based aircraft that can reach anywhere their Navy is likely to go and hang around even longer than an E-2 -- which Brazil doesn't have in any case. (they do have AEW&C aircraft and Boeing 767 tankers with intercontinental range to keep them airborne indefinitely)


When initially posting, I didn't have time to consult my friendly neighborhood wikipedia and didn't know that all of the helicopter carriers aren't "pure" 'Copter carriers. With some featuring runways to handle fighter jets. Which makes more sense to me. That's a very nice pic of Japan's 'Copter carrier on wiki.

The RN had 'Copter carriers in the 60s!

I imagine a carrier full of Airwolves, :D the Bell 222 'Copter used in the show. Seems it was sold to Germany and used for ambulance service then crashed in a thunderstorm killing all three of its passengers. My brother liked the show so much I gave him an RC version for his birthday one year. He flew it all of one day, then retired it. Said it was way too cool to risk crashing. He says the offers made to purchase it are crazy. He's not selling. He has the 600 scale size. There's an 800 size out now. The 600 is pretty darn big.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Theemile   » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:57 pm

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cthia wrote:
When initially posting, I didn't have time to consult my friendly neighborhood wikipedia and didn't know that all of the helicopter carriers aren't "pure" 'Copter carriers. With some featuring runways to handle fighter jets. Which makes more sense to me. That's a very nice pic of Japan's 'Copter carrier on wiki.

The RN had 'Copter carriers in the 60s!

<snip>.

However a Helicopter carrier is limited to VTOL or VSTOL planes. Which limits you to something in the Harrier family, the YAK-38, or the MV-22, or the new F-35B.

Side thought, there are groups pushing a mini AWACs on a Gulfstream 550 or Bombardier business jet with the AESA radars in belly bulges. I wonder if a MV-22 could be so outfitted.

The US had a study in the 70's calling for a "sea Control ship" and outlining it's design - basically a helicopter carrier with harriers or the like, able to control a point at sea. The last Spruance (USS Halsey) was to be of such a design, but extra funding was pulled at the last minute and it was laid down as a regular spru-can. Most small carriers built since reference the study somewhere in it's design or doctrine. All the US Marine helicopter carriers have had the option to switch over to a sea control ship for years.
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by kzt   » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:13 pm

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There are helicopter systems that provide airborne warming, but they can't go as high and have far less duration on station than a fixed wing AEW aircraft.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by robert132   » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:26 pm

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Theemile wrote:
The US had a study in the 70's calling for a "sea Control ship" and outlining it's design - basically a helicopter carrier with harriers or the like, able to control a point at sea. The last Spruance (USS Halsey) was to be of such a design, but extra funding was pulled at the last minute and it was laid down as a regular spru-can. Most small carriers built since reference the study somewhere in it's design or doctrine. All the US Marine helicopter carriers have had the option to switch over to a sea control ship for years.


Quickly, a couple of points. The USS Halsey is an Arleigh Burke class DDG, the final Spruance off the ways was USS Hayler (DD 997).
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Just my opinion of course and probably not worth the paper it's not written on.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:30 pm

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And people have at least talked about adapting those helicopter based systems to the V-22, which should give better height (and hence range to the horizon) and longer loiter endurance after transitioning to forward flight mode than those same systems can get when hung off a chopper.

But I'm not sure if any of them have been tested. Nor am I aware if the existing copter based systems are aerodynamic enough to want to stick out the bottom of a plane - with it's higher economical cruise speed.

Certainly it seems likely that some airborne early warning radar could be fit to a tiltrotor - though the command & control part of AWACs might be done from a ship with a datalinked view of the airborne radar's take (to avoid trying to stick the necessary consoles and people into the fairly cramped interior of the V-22.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Theemile   » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:54 pm

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robert132 wrote:
Theemile wrote:
The US had a study in the 70's calling for a "sea Control ship" and outlining it's design - basically a helicopter carrier with harriers or the like, able to control a point at sea. The last Spruance (USS Halsey) was to be of such a design, but extra funding was pulled at the last minute and it was laid down as a regular spru-can. Most small carriers built since reference the study somewhere in it's design or doctrine. All the US Marine helicopter carriers have had the option to switch over to a sea control ship for years.


Quickly, a couple of points. The USS Halsey is an Arleigh Burke class DDG, the final Spruance off the ways was USS Hayler (DD 997).


Yep, it was the Hayler. Sorry for the mis-remembrance.
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Weird Harold   » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:34 pm

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Theemile wrote:The only other VSTOL solutions are MV-22s and F-35s, neither of which are readily abundant.


You're forgetting the Soviet V/STOL carrier planes. I don't recall the designations offhand, but MiG, Sukhoi, and I think Lavoskian(sp) all have V/STOL/Carrier planes in their catalogues

ETA: And Yakovlev - the only (best known) vertical landing plane the Soviets built.

The Indian Navy is flying MiGs from their carrier, IIRC.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by ldwechsler   » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:51 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
Theemile wrote:The only other VSTOL solutions are MV-22s and F-35s, neither of which are readily abundant.


You're forgetting the Soviet V/STOL carrier planes. I don't recall the designations offhand, but MiG, Sukhoi, and I think Lavoskian(sp) all have V/STOL/Carrier planes in their catalogues

ETA: And Yakovlev - the only (best known) vertical landing plane the Soviets built.

The Indian Navy is flying MiGs from their carrier, IIRC.


I would guess these helicopter carriers will generally be used in conjunction with aircraft from either large carriers or land.

They would also provide a very fast way to put a lot of troops in place.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Weird Harold   » Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:03 am

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ldwechsler wrote:I would guess these helicopter carriers will generally be used in conjunction with aircraft from either large carriers or land.


The specific case that prompted the discussion of helicopter carriers is the Brazilian Navy replacing its only Aircraft Carrier with a single Helicopter Carrier. The Brazilians didn't have any carrier based AEW planes so they have always worked with land-based AEW and Patrol. Since they only have one carrier, they're NOT going to be working in conjunction with large carriers.

Other nations will have different reasons for commissioning helicopter carriers; the US, for example, uses them as floating Marine bases under the Air Superiority umbrella of fleet carriers' fixed wing and ASW shield of other battle group ships.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by ldwechsler   » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:19 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:I would guess these helicopter carriers will generally be used in conjunction with aircraft from either large carriers or land.


The specific case that prompted the discussion of helicopter carriers is the Brazilian Navy replacing its only Aircraft Carrier with a single Helicopter Carrier. The Brazilians didn't have any carrier based AEW planes so they have always worked with land-based AEW and Patrol. Since they only have one carrier, they're NOT going to be working in conjunction with large carriers.

Other nations will have different reasons for commissioning helicopter carriers; the US, for example, uses them as floating Marine bases under the Air Superiority umbrella of fleet carriers' fixed wing and ASW shield of other battle group ships.



We can expect the first major invasion of Brazil when? A helicopter carrier can handle a real lot of missions that are not particularly war-related.
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