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Remaining holes in SLN intel

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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by cthia   » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:22 am

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I would imagine that BuPers still isn't at the point where warm bodies are growing on trees. With the GA's increasing responsibility in the galaxy there is a need for more and more ships. Automation allows more ships to be manned with Manticore's limited personnel. I think someone already mentioned that if you do manage to lose a ship, you lose less personnel.

Pnakasone's notion of a sweet spot is very interesting and I would imagine already being kicked around at the Admiralty. Btw, it would be interesting to read Honor's take on this.

As far as boarding crews, perhaps it's time for the RMN to begin thinking of boarding crews as something the auxiliaries can carry when they are expected. Why can't weapons be people?

At any rate, it makes me think it might be an area of contention between the Jeune ecole and the historical school.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by cthia   » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:31 am

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There is a hOle that is so glaring that no one has bothered to mention it. The SL still hasn't come to terms with the fact that there is an invisible player at the high stakes poker game.

What I don't understand about the whole thing, is who do they think is responsible for the Yawata Strike? Haven didn't do it. The SLN knows that they didn't do it. So why is it so hard for them to fathom that there SIMPLY MUST BE some other player? Then, one has to wonder if they'd experience the same degree of anger at the realization of being used and cajoled as Haven and Manticore did?

Even Gweon can't hide that obvious fact.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by ldwechsler   » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:49 am

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cthia wrote:There is a hOle that is so glaring that no one has bothered to mention it. The SL still hasn't come to terms with the fact that there is an invisible player at the high stakes poker game.

What I don't understand about the whole thing, is who do they think is responsible for the Yawata Strike? Haven didn't do it. The SLN knows that they didn't do it. So why is it so hard for them to fathom that there SIMPLY MUST BE some other player? Then, one has to wonder if they'd experience the same degree of anger at the realization of being used and cajoled as Haven and Manticore did?

Even Gweon can't hide that obvious fact.


When in doubt, simply ignore the facts. If the powers that be continue to push the same story, if ignoring that story to pursue facts can be fatal to a career, a lot of things can be overlooked.

Add to that the fact that the GA has smashed them down and is dismantling the whole League and they are really distracted.

Remember that there are people looking into what really happened. Those people are very competent but they are really keeping their heads down.

I would guess that sooner or later (in the upcoming book) they will point out a lot of things to the mandarins that will be unpleasant. The mandarins could use the info to save their own backsides. Blame traitors within. It worked for Hitler and the Nazis.

The mandarins might be willing to rule a much smaller area. After all, they'd still have their perks.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by cthia   » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:09 am

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ldwechsler wrote:
cthia wrote:There is a hOle that is so glaring that no one has bothered to mention it. The SL still hasn't come to terms with the fact that there is an invisible player at the high stakes poker game.

What I don't understand about the whole thing, is who do they think is responsible for the Yawata Strike? Haven didn't do it. The SLN knows that they didn't do it. So why is it so hard for them to fathom that there SIMPLY MUST BE some other player? Then, one has to wonder if they'd experience the same degree of anger at the realization of being used and cajoled as Haven and Manticore did?

Even Gweon can't hide that obvious fact.


When in doubt, simply ignore the facts. If the powers that be continue to push the same story, if ignoring that story to pursue facts can be fatal to a career, a lot of things can be overlooked.

Add to that the fact that the GA has smashed them down and is dismantling the whole League and they are really distracted.

Remember that there are people looking into what really happened. Those people are very competent but they are really keeping their heads down.

I would guess that sooner or later (in the upcoming book) they will point out a lot of things to the mandarins that will be unpleasant. The mandarins could use the info to save their own backsides. Blame traitors within. It worked for Hitler and the Nazis.

The mandarins might be willing to rule a much smaller area. After all, they'd still have their perks.


Indeed. Unwillingness to see because sight would be detrimental is a real problem. But that only explains the Mandarins' blindness. How would that account for their entire population? If a similar strike befell any nation here on Earth, everyone would want to know who did it?* It would consume headlines and minds for quite some time and would make the web that the Mandarins are spinning obvious lies. I don't even know how O'handyhand managed a counter spin on that one. In how much of a vacuum does people live in in the Sol System?

*The curiosity of who did it would lead to the next question of why. But if one doesn't know who did it, then it becomes impossible to put motives on it. And without clear and present motives as to why Manticore was attacked, then there cannot, should not, be certainty or security that the same attack won't be headed their way. How can Solarians sleep as snuggly as a bug in a rug at night?

Of course the attack, of a different kind from a Malign mind, has already befell them.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Bluesqueak   » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:00 am

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cthia wrote:There is a hOle that is so glaring that no one has bothered to mention it. The SL still hasn't come to terms with the fact that there is an invisible player at the high stakes poker game.

What I don't understand about the whole thing, is who do they think is responsible for the Yawata Strike? Haven didn't do it. The SLN knows that they didn't do it. So why is it so hard for them to fathom that there SIMPLY MUST BE some other player? Then, one has to wonder if they'd experience the same degree of anger at the realization of being used and cajoled as Haven and Manticore did?

Even Gweon can't hide that obvious fact.


Because these are neobarbs. And the Sollies are prejudiced against neobarbs. And that's the Solly Elephant In the Room that the Mesan Alignment is playing like a violin.

The Manties are neobarbs, therefore they can easily find an officer who hates neobarbs with every fibre of his being. The Manties are neobarbs, therefore they can't possibly have technology superior to the Leagues. The Manties are neobarbs, so who cares which other bunch of neobarbs managed the sneak attack?

The Sollies simply don't see Oyster Bay as the second Pearl Harbor, the sneak attack that is stupendously successful but wakes a sleeping giant. They see it as one bunch of primitives managing a successful ambush on another bunch. They probably used (in the Solly view) stone axes and canoes... but who cares? It's just convenient that these little neobarb bush wars happened to damage the uppity Manties.

There's massive Solly prejudice against neobarbs; the Mesan Alignment is playing on it - and has probably used its sleeper agents in Solly media to subtly fan it.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Keith_w   » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:12 am

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pnakasone wrote:
Fireflair wrote:I think that automation will stick around in the RMN ships, without any reduction. It's proven to be workable and successful in the field, under wartime conditions. The people in charge of the purse strings, once the war is over, are going to be looking to tighten up the wallet. Automation lets them do that by having fewer people.


The question is the automation really cheaper then more warm bodies when you do not need as many ships? The cost of automation may only be justifiable if they need large numbers of ships.

It's cheaper than not having the warm bodies to put on the ships at all. Ships without crews are very very expensive holes in the budget.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by drothgery   » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:00 am

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pnakasone wrote:So the question is what is the new sweet spot in crew size and automation level going to be for ships whose duties will include SAR, boarding operations, and possibly providing prize crews for captured ships?
It's another reason why I don't think Rolands will stay in service very long, and Sag-Cs or ships a lot closer to them than anything else in the current RMN inventory are going to end up doing a lot of the peacetime duties previously performed by light cruisers and destroyers. Can't get much smaller than that and have DDMs, worthwhile defenses, and a non-trivial number of Marines (albeit small for traditional RMN peacetime CA roles).
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Dauntless   » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:43 am

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it is interesting to see what adding DDM in a useable number does to size when a roland is the best part 50% bigger then the RMNs newest light cruiser.

in the long run i agree the roland is really not all that viable. much like many of the RMS newest it is a pure war fighting design and will struggle with some of its normal peacetime duties.

that said until a proper DDM is deployed by someone else there isn't a vast need for anything less then a BC to fire a DDM. if RMN CAs and BCs had not always shared the same ammo then I doubt the Sag C would have existed. so for pirate swatting and general show the flag and customs work LERMs work fine.

still being prepared for the future is no bad thing, a smaller ship then the SAG-c that can fire DDMs would be handy and the roland provides useful data onto the size of the ship
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Michael Everett   » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:44 am

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Bluesqueak wrote:And that's the Solly Elephant In the Room that the Mesan Alignment is playing like a violin.

...the mental image of that mixed metaphor is quite... disconcerting.

As for the Solarian Mindset, I would guess that the SLN has been the metaphorical 900kg mega-gorilla for so long that it has become accustomed to having no competition, thus it does not need little things like viable Intelligence Agencies or challenging training scenarios.
In other words, it has become infected with the Dunning-Kruger effect.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by quite possibly a cat   » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:18 pm

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cthia wrote:There is a hOle that is so glaring that no one has bothered to mention it. The SL still hasn't come to terms with the fact that there is an invisible player at the high stakes poker game.

What I don't understand about the whole thing, is who do they think is responsible for the Yawata Strike? Haven didn't do it. The SLN knows that they didn't do it. So why is it so hard for them to fathom that there SIMPLY MUST BE some other player? Then, one has to wonder if they'd experience the same degree of anger at the realization of being used and cajoled as Haven and Manticore did?

Even Gweon can't hide that obvious fact.

How do they know that Haven didn't do it? Haven seems like the logical suspect honestly. They were at war with the Manties and the strike essentially forced the Manties to come to even terms.

Had Manticore tried to go forth with the war anyway Haven could have handed the Solarian League all their tech. Then Manticore would have been a few years away from getting steam rolled by Frontier and Battle fleet. They were just waiting for an excuse. This is basically why Honor wanted to negotiate for fair terms in the first place!

They still should have spared at least a little investigative power on it though! Seriously, the idea that Manticore's defenses were down because of a highly surgical stealth strike? Particularly galling when the SL invented those assassin drones!

cthia wrote:Indeed. Unwillingness to see because sight would be detrimental is a real problem. But that only explains the Mandarins' blindness. How would that account for their entire population? If a similar strike befell any nation here on Earth, everyone would want to know who did it?*
Have we seen what the Solly public thinks about the strikes? All of the Solarian League we've seen is:

Beowulf: They care and are actively helping rebuild.

Earth, Old Chicago: I mostly remember the public protesting.

News takes time to filter through as well. Also if the public did care and there wasn't enough info they would either turn to their "local" star system level government or the news media. We know plenty of SDFs have been observing and they can probably get a Manticorian newspaper if they want.

Finally, if they see through Battle Fleet's crap and are worried about a similar strike happening to them they'll turn to their SDFs. Some of which, we have been told, exceed Battle Fleet.
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