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Remaining holes in SLN intel

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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by ldwechsler   » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:46 pm

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n7axw wrote:Andrea hadn't been promoted to captain prior to Honor stepping in and intervening on her behalf. Santino, on the other hand was an admiral, although I don't remember what grade. So there was no possibility or any sort of remedial aaction on her part.

Don

-



She was tac officer. He was a connected admiral. No contest.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:53 pm

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cthia wrote:Whoever the responsibility belonged to must have been as sorry as Santino.


IIRC, he took a long walk on a (short) 100th floor balcony of RMN Headquarters.
.
.
.
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by runsforcelery   » Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:05 pm

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cthia wrote:Something was seriously broken inside Santino. I don't know what and don't want the author to waste any time on it, but something profound was really wrong there. He was missing cogs, sprockets and screws. With Honor and other competent officers, I got the impression there simply was never enough time to do what needed to be done. With Santino and Pavel Young, one wonders what the heck they did with their time to occupy themselves. Watching skin flicks on HD in their quarters? I always wondered whether Jaruwalski could have relieved Santino and taken command of the ship like Denzel did in Crimson Tide with some obscure regulation that amounts to incompetence?

In fact, I kept looking for that shoe to drop. ::shrugs::


Do not get me started on all the things wrong with Crimson Tide. It was the only Denzel Washington movie I ever totally regretted watching. There is no provision in military law for a subordinate's legally relieving a superior officer for incompetence. You can make a case for incapacitation and you can make a case for cowardice, although the former will require a sign off by someone competent to judge his incapacitation (like a physician who attests to his mental instability) and the latter is both extraordinarily difficult to prove going up the chain of command and to the best of my knowledge is not formally enshrined anywhere in the UCMJ. But there isn't a provision for removing an officer senior to you just because he is a total jerk whose orders are likely to get a lot of people killed.

There is a procedure for removing such officers. It is commonly called "fragging," and it is illegal as hell. Sometimes it's done anyway, however, and sometimes it's even winked at by the military when the chain of command discovers what happened and figures out why.

There was no legal basis for Andrea or anyone else to relieve Santino, and there really shouldn't be, because if a junior officer is empowered by military law to relieve a senior officer for incompetence, then that junior officer also has to be legally empowered to make a judgment of incompetence, and thereby hangs an incredible can of worms. To be perfectly honest, any sane military hierarchy would rather risk a Santino, even if he does exactly what Santino did, than shatter military discipline by telling someone farther down the command tree that he/she can remove his/her commanding officer whenever in his/her personal opinion that CO merits relief. Can't do that in a combat arm, where it may well be someone's "considered judgment" that a superior is "incompetent" because the someone in question doesn't want to go on a high-risk mission. "It was certain death! Everyone knows the entire crew would've been killed without scoring a single hit if we'd taken those 'down the throat' shots at those Jap destroyers! Besides, that wasn't our mission. Our mission was to sink unarmed merchant ships. So of course I had no choice but to relieve Captain Dealy at pistol-point and take the Harder back to Pearl!"

Denzel Washington's character should've been court-martialed and shot when he returned to port even if he was morally correct to take the action he took. It certainly shouldn't have been covered up, swept under the table, and have everyone effectively agree that it was perfectly okay for the executive officer of a nuclear-armed warship to seize command by force. That doesn't mean that Washington's character might not have had a moral responsibility to do precisely what he did (although they didn't convince me of that during the movie, as well as I can remember the details now [Oh, the horror! The horror!]) and then face the music at his court-martial.

Given the disparity in rank between Santino and Andrea, however, and her place in the chain of command, there were a bunch of people between her and Santino who clearly had at the very least a moral responsibility to protest his orders, but she'd done all she could do when he summarily relieved her.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by lyonheart   » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:45 pm

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Amen Korps bruder!

Whoever wrote it didn't really understand the navy or the military regardless if they served; and I'm curious what the sub and boomer community in particular thought of the movie then and since, but I don't subscribe to the navy magazines or even Stars and Stripes which I'm sure had a field day discussing it in the letters section at least.

I expect there were and are all sorts of nits if not absolute impossibilities; but this is neither the time or place to mention any, just as I don't want to remember Starship Troopers, which I foolishly wasted money on; or Waterworld or just about any 'serious' SciFi movie that's lame PC nonsense, including Star Wars that has become so formulaic that I didn't bother seeing the last one, although The Martian was pretty good as was the book.

Thanks again RFC,

L


runsforcelery wrote:
cthia wrote:Something was seriously broken inside Santino. I don't know what and don't want the author to waste any time on it, but something profound was really wrong there. He was missing cogs, sprockets and screws. With Honor and other competent officers, I got the impression there simply was never enough time to do what needed to be done. With Santino and Pavel Young, one wonders what the heck they did with their time to occupy themselves. Watching skin flicks on HD in their quarters? I always wondered whether Jaruwalski could have relieved Santino and taken command of the ship like Denzel did in Crimson Tide with some obscure regulation that amounts to incompetence?

In fact, I kept looking for that shoe to drop. ::shrugs::


Do not get me started on all the things wrong with Crimson Tide. It was the only Denzel Washington movie I ever totally regretted watching. There is no provision in military law for a subordinate's legally relieving a superior officer for incompetence. You can make a case for incapacitation and you can make a case for cowardice, although the former will require a sign off by someone competent to judge his incapacitation (like a physician who attests to his mental instability) and the latter is both extraordinarily difficult to prove going up the chain of command and to the best of my knowledge is not formally enshrined anywhere in the UCMJ. But there isn't a provision for removing an officer senior to you just because he is a total jerk whose orders are likely to get a lot of people killed.

There is a procedure for removing such officers. It is commonly called "fragging," and it is illegal as hell. Sometimes it's done anyway, however, and sometimes it's even winked at by the military when the chain of command discovers what happened and figures out why.

There was no legal basis for Andrea or anyone else to relieve Santino, and there really shouldn't be, because if a junior officer is empowered by military law to relieve a senior officer for incompetence, then that junior officer also has to be legally empowered to make a judgment of incompetence, and thereby hangs an incredible can of worms. To be perfectly honest, any sane military hierarchy would rather risk a Santino, even if he does exactly what Santino did, than shatter military discipline by telling someone farther down the command tree that he/she can remove his/her commanding officer whenever in his/her personal opinion that CO merits relief. Can't do that in a combat arm, where it may well be someone's "considered judgment" that a superior is "incompetent" because the someone in question doesn't want to go on a high-risk mission. "It was certain death! Everyone knows the entire crew would've been killed without scoring a single hit if we'd taken those 'down the throat' shots at those Jap destroyers! Besides, that wasn't our mission. Our mission was to sink unarmed merchant ships. So of course I had no choice but to relieve Captain Dealy at pistol-point and take the Harder back to Pearl!"

Denzel Washington's character should've been court-martialed and shot when he returned to port even if he was morally correct to take the action he took. It certainly shouldn't have been covered up, swept under the table, and have everyone effectively agree that it was perfectly okay for the executive officer of a nuclear-armed warship to seize command by force. That doesn't mean that Washington's character might not have had a moral responsibility to do precisely what he did (although they didn't convince me of that during the movie, as well as I can remember the details now [Oh, the horror! The horror!]) and then face the music at his court-martial.

Given the disparity in rank between Santino and Andrea, however, and her place in the chain of command, there were a bunch of people between her and Santino who clearly had at the very least a moral responsibility to protest his orders, but she'd done all she could do when he summarily relieved her.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by lyonheart   » Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:06 am

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Hi Weird Harold,

Janacek didn't commit suicide until Thunderbolt at the end of 1919, several years later, and he didn't jump IIRC; nor was he anywhere in the then chain of command at the time of the Seaford Nine attack [1913 PD], although he may have been involved earlier in getting Santino through the 'crusher' [ie the ATC] etc, and his previous commands, if he hadn't learned anything on or since War Maiden.

He was the example of aristocratic incompetence that RFC felt needed to be shown, IMO; that some Manticorans were also very incompetent etc.

Still, he and Janacek are both gone now and the not-so-subtle message to any of their friends still in service is; don't screw up where the Salamander or her friends may find out, because you will be used as a bad example for decades even after you are dead.

Definitely interesting times,

L


Weird Harold wrote:
cthia wrote:Whoever the responsibility belonged to must have been as sorry as Santino.


IIRC, he took a long walk on a (short) 100th floor balcony of RMN Headquarters.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by cthia   » Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:14 am

cthia
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I really appreciate this post. Pretty much everything you said ran through my mind after the movie. Mainly, it is a huge responsibility to give any other officer if discipline is to be preserved. And oftentimes a CO knows that his command is doomed, but he must do what must be done and persevere anyway. Besides, a few good men can hold a hopeless position against insurmountable odds with heart and there are many examples in history where this has happened. But if the power to remove a CO is given, those monumental battles might never have occurred.

Having said that, I really thought that there was some sort of regulation to do so since it was an instrumental part of the movie. Goes to show how gullible we are to what we see onscreen. It must have been a travesty of justice for actual military officers to watch that movie.

I was anticipating someone in the forum to indicate whether or not there was an actual regulation as specifically stated by Denzel, but since no one did, well...

Anyways, thanks a bunch RFC. I can feel better about Andrea's actions now, because Crimson Tide really had me disliking that entire scene with Santino. Now I know that he shouldn't have been relieved, he should have been shot. A mutiny on his booty!

Now I wonder how many other movies downright lied to me.


Late Edit:

BTW, I loved the movie anyway for the action and will continue to do so, with a footnote to myself in my brain.

I enjoyed all of Denzel's movies. EXCEPT TRAINING DAY. I hated that movie. Not because it wasn't a good movie, but because of Denzel's part. It was not his typical role. It received all kinds of awards and should have because it showcased his range and talent. He received an Academy Award for the performance because it was an Academy Award performance. But, I didn't have to like it. And I don't. I wanted to throw a bowling ball into the tv and was calling for Denzel's blood less than half way through.

He was very convincing.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by cthia   » Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:23 am

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ldwechsler wrote:There is corruption everywhere. Wartime tends to end a lot of it as the corrupt are either killed, captured or sent to where they can do no harm.

But the Sollies have not faced war so the incompetents may rule.

lyonheart wrote:Hi ldwechsler,

We were told years ago [more than a decade] by RFC that the BF was incompetent and the efficient or successful leader would probably come from the FF to be the new CO, if the SLN got that lucky.

Given how deep the hole is, I don't how anyone including H-AH herself could get out of it, if she were cloned or somehow switched sides.

We've had many threads by people trying to find some way the SLN might win or stave off the avalanche or monsoon about to hit them, but none of them came close to being realistic as, so many of you pointed out.

If we have a single RHN DD fending off an entire FF TF all by itself, where can the SLN win?

RFC put them in this deep hole for a reason long ago we may find out some more of the answers next week. 8-)

L

Ten years ago? I wasn't a fan ten years ago. I wasn't a fan five years ago. Yet it is still obvious to me what has to happen. I'm just not sure how it will happen with the two disrespecting and detesting each other.


Can you imagine the day it does happen.


ATTENTION ALL OFFICERS:

BF IS NOW FF. FF IS NOW BF. CARRY ON.


If the SLN had been doing what all other navies do, rotating officers in and out of other duties for a well rounded military education, things would be a little better for them. Has BF even faced a single pirate?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by cthia   » Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:56 am

cthia
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runsforcelery wrote:
cthia wrote:Something was seriously broken inside Santino. I don't know what and don't want the author to waste any time on it, but something profound was really wrong there. He was missing cogs, sprockets and screws. With Honor and other competent officers, I got the impression there simply was never enough time to do what needed to be done. With Santino and Pavel Young, one wonders what the heck they did with their time to occupy themselves. Watching skin flicks on HD in their quarters? I always wondered whether Jaruwalski could have relieved Santino and taken command of the ship like Denzel did in Crimson Tide with some obscure regulation that amounts to incompetence?

In fact, I kept looking for that shoe to drop. ::shrugs::


Do not get me started on all the things wrong with Crimson Tide. It was the only Denzel Washington movie I ever totally regretted watching. There is no provision in military law for a subordinate's legally relieving a superior officer for incompetence. You can make a case for incapacitation and you can make a case for cowardice, although the former will require a sign off by someone competent to judge his incapacitation (like a physician who attests to his mental instability) and the latter is both extraordinarily difficult to prove going up the chain of command and to the best of my knowledge is not formally enshrined anywhere in the UCMJ. But there isn't a provision for removing an officer senior to you just because he is a total jerk whose orders are likely to get a lot of people killed.

There is a procedure for removing such officers. It is commonly called "fragging," and it is illegal as hell. Sometimes it's done anyway, however, and sometimes it's even winked at by the military when the chain of command discovers what happened and figures out why.

There was no legal basis for Andrea or anyone else to relieve Santino, and there really shouldn't be, because if a junior officer is empowered by military law to relieve a senior officer for incompetence, then that junior officer also has to be legally empowered to make a judgment of incompetence, and thereby hangs an incredible can of worms. To be perfectly honest, any sane military hierarchy would rather risk a Santino, even if he does exactly what Santino did, than shatter military discipline by telling someone farther down the command tree that he/she can remove his/her commanding officer whenever in his/her personal opinion that CO merits relief. Can't do that in a combat arm, where it may well be someone's "considered judgment" that a superior is "incompetent" because the someone in question doesn't want to go on a high-risk mission. "It was certain death! Everyone knows the entire crew would've been killed without scoring a single hit if we'd taken those 'down the throat' shots at those Jap destroyers! Besides, that wasn't our mission. Our mission was to sink unarmed merchant ships. So of course I had no choice but to relieve Captain Dealy at pistol-point and take the Harder back to Pearl!"

Denzel Washington's character should've been court-martialed and shot when he returned to port even if he was morally correct to take the action he took. It certainly shouldn't have been covered up, swept under the table, and have everyone effectively agree that it was perfectly okay for the executive officer of a nuclear-armed warship to seize command by force. That doesn't mean that Washington's character might not have had a moral responsibility to do precisely what he did (although they didn't convince me of that during the movie, as well as I can remember the details now [Oh, the horror! The horror!]) and then face the music at his court-martial.

Given the disparity in rank between Santino and Andrea, however, and her place in the chain of command, there were a bunch of people between her and Santino who clearly had at the very least a moral responsibility to protest his orders, but she'd done all she could do when he summarily relieved her.


I knew that a "regulation" existed to relieve an incompetent officer, RFC. I found it... :mrgreen:

mu·ti·ny
[ˈmyo͞otnē]

NOUN

an open rebellion against the proper authorities, especially by soldiers or sailors against their officers.


synonyms: insurrection · rebellion · revolt · riot · revolution

VERB

refuse to obey the orders of a person in authority.


There should have been another Mutiny on the Bounty. Though it wouldn't have been much of a mutiny when the entire ship would have went along with it.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Fireflair   » Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:15 am

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As a long time member of the submarine community, having served on both boomers and fast boats, I can assure you that every competent and capable sailor I've worked with has cordially detested most Hollywood movies about submarines. Hollywood so rarely gets any of the details right, despite having many advisors and opportunities to get it right.

Most of us, if we want to enjoy such movies, press the 'suspend belief' button and just go with it. We all universally bitch about the idiocy of the movie. I suspect this is true of almost all military movies we watch in general.

During my service we received numerous different message traffic items about a variety of Hollywood films. The guidance was mostly not to make public comments about them. Annapolis, Crimson Tide, Down Periscope and Hunt for Red October all come to mind as I can recall specific message traffic concerning them. Others which we were warned not to comment about were U571 or K19.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by drothgery   » Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:19 am

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Fireflair wrote:As a long time member of the submarine community, having served on both boomers and fast boats, I can assure you that every competent and capable sailor I've worked with has cordially detested most Hollywood movies about submarines. Hollywood so rarely gets any of the details right, despite having many advisors and opportunities to get it right.

I think most people notice that Hollywood does not get the details of their field right in movies (certainly they have some amusing notions of how programming is done...).
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