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Remaining holes in SLN intel

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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by feyhunde   » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:21 pm

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Regarding taxes and complexity:

Some countries are much simpler for their income tax filings than the modern US, as the payroll taxes are used to compute an estimated tax form, which is sent to the filer. For most people, its a one page form. It's more complicated with self-employment, although I'd imagine fully electronic records would be very helpful.

The other thing is the SKM's history of direct income taxes is short.

I believe the bit about taxes versus cost only applies to Zero-balances and required taxes paid for 5 years before voting. Yeomen could vote in 1 year. And even then it seems odd, as Manticore lacked an income tax until the recent wars.

Right now the Tax in Manticore is probably more similar to the Civil War era tax, which was effectively relied on goodwill to work, and had only ho-hum enforcement measures.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:08 am

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saber964 wrote:IIRC Terekhov filled out his single page E-form in 15 minutes.
California actually ran a pilot program 10-15 years ago where for 10,000 selected residents with simple taxes the state IRS just mailed them a form with all the numbers filled in from income (mostly wages and interest) and deductions (mortgage interest, local taxes) already filed with the state by employers, banks, etc. The resident looked it over and if they agreed with it they just had to sign the form and send it back. (If there were additional data not reported automatically to the state, like charitable donations or hobby income, then they could update the form).

The people in that trial reportedly loved it.

Unfortunately it fell victim to being a diffuse benefit, without any group strongly lobbying for it, that had a specific and motivated group (the tax preparation industry) lobbying against it - so the trial ended without ever going to widespread adoption. Many (though far from all) US tax payers have equally simple situations where all the numbers on their forms are already reported to the IRS so, if legally allowed to, the IRS could also send them out prefilled forms based on that information.
I'm not holding my breath however.
drinksmuchcoffee wrote:The way the SKM works is that only people who have paid more in taxes than they have received in government benefits get to vote. I remember vaguely that there is a five-year window on that but I am not certain. If there were no taxes then nobody could vote.

IIRC it was specifically direct government benefit payments that counted against taxes for the franchise. Indirect benefits, whether amorphous ones like the economic benefit of public safety, or straightforward ones like subsidies that go to the company that employs you, apparently don't count. (It was apparently those "loopholes" that let Janesek pull of vote buying through government largess without running the risk of disenfranchising the newly subsidied public)

feyhunde wrote:The other thing is the SKM's history of direct income taxes is short.[snip]
And even then it seems odd, as Manticore lacked an income tax until the recent wars.
I thought they long had an income tax, but it was only the wartime emergency that allowed it to temporarily become a graduated income tax (the wealthy have a higher tax bracket)

There are pretty good arguments that a uniform income tax rate is actually regressive (impacts the poor more than the middle class and them more than the rich) - but Manticore's system may compensate for that in other ways or simply have a low enough tax level that it doesn't make a big practical difference.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Keith_w   » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:36 am

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quite possibly a cat wrote:Very few people in America don't pay taxes. Income Tax one of the many taxes around. Almost everyone pays some form of payroll tax if they work and sales tax if they buy stuff. Furthermore actual incidence of taxes is different than who nominally pays the tax. For instance while a landlord would pay the property tax, the costs from property tax would be mostly or entirely passed on to his tenants.

Although, its hardly a major problem with Manticore's system of government. Hell, they can suspend elections simply by being at "war". In this case a political party would be able to readily abuse that part by simply declaring war on the group behind the Yawtwa strike (Mesa if an official nation is required) and never hold elections again!

Furthermore the culture of dueling is also ripe for exploitation. In particular, if you get challenged to a duel it is considered cowardice to refuse even when your opponent has cybernetic and genetic enhancements that you lack. As far as I was able to tell its not even a requirement to inform your opponent of their existence! A few cybermods and you can eliminate anyone who dislike from the Lords the same way Honor did!


Sorry for being unclear, yes I did mean to say how few people pay income taxes as that is the specific tax I, as are so many others, concerned with at this time of year and it was the major tax being discussed in the post I was responding to.
--
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by ldwechsler   » Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:40 pm

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Keith_w wrote:
quite possibly a cat wrote:Very few people in America don't pay taxes. Income Tax one of the many taxes around. Almost everyone pays some form of payroll tax if they work and sales tax if they buy stuff. Furthermore actual incidence of taxes is different than who nominally pays the tax. For instance while a landlord would pay the property tax, the costs from property tax would be mostly or entirely passed on to his tenants.

Although, its hardly a major problem with Manticore's system of government. Hell, they can suspend elections simply by being at "war". In this case a political party would be able to readily abuse that part by simply declaring war on the group behind the Yawtwa strike (Mesa if an official nation is required) and never hold elections again!

Furthermore the culture of dueling is also ripe for exploitation. In particular, if you get challenged to a duel it is considered cowardice to refuse even when your opponent has cybernetic and genetic enhancements that you lack. As far as I was able to tell its not even a requirement to inform your opponent of their existence! A few cybermods and you can eliminate anyone who dislike from the Lords the same way Honor did!


Sorry for being unclear, yes I did mean to say how few people pay income taxes as that is the specific tax I, as are so many others, concerned with at this time of year and it was the major tax being discussed in the post I was responding to.


Of course there are all sorts of taxes in America and some of the most regressive are the easiest to get through. Right now in Portland, OR you will pay about forty percent of a soft drink in taxes. The Costco there suggests you to neighboring towns to get your soda, etc.

What I THINK is meant by the Manticoran rules, those who get more in direct benefits (welfare, etc.) than they pay in taxes do not get to vote.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Bluesqueak   » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:14 pm

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Suspending elections during a major war is not uncommon. The UK didn't have any elections between 1935 and 1945, or between 1910 and 1918.

Suspending elections generally depends on the size of the war. The problem with the High Ridge suspension was that the war, at that point, wasn't really happening.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Brigade XO   » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:31 pm

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quite possibly a cat wrote:
Brigade XO wrote: Build an algorithm (or buy one) and any 20-something can make good loans.....sure. Until a problem comes up or there is something the algorithm can't process

Clearly someone screwed up making the algorithm. This is why you should put everything in the equivalent of a try-catch block. So anytime "there is something the algorithm can't process" you default to something simple like refusing the loan, foreclosing on a random person's house or calling the police. Probably just refusing the loan; the other two sound slightly illegal.


Anyway, if they are really worried about not having enough skilled people they can disassemble some skilled people molecule by molecule and then simulate the skilled people whenever there is a problem. That way you only need enough smarties to run a single ship!


Oh, no, you can't default decline all that much of this stuff.....it turns out that the bean-counters have determined that working the loan request is too expensive and if you have to failit, it you lose money so it is refered to a special (and much higher interest and fee level) group to be counter-offered. You really don't want to know:)
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by drinksmuchcoffee   » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:13 pm

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quite possibly a cat wrote:...
Yeah, I know. That's why I had a paragraph of evil suggestions next.

Not so sure it would self-destruct, but it has serious potential for abuse. The franchise has been restricted in all sorts of ways without leading to quick self-destruction.

...


A couple of thought experiments.

One is about tax cuts. Under the Manticoran system, any tax cut inevitably disenfranchises some group of people.

Another is disaster relief. If your home and livelihood are destroyed by a natural disaster, say an earthquake, forest fire, monster storm, or debris from a surprise attack by genetically engineered supermen (not sure the last is technically a *natural* disaster) you will probably receive some form of government aid. It is easy to imagine that it would take many, perhaps most, taxpayers years to "pay it back". In the meantime unscrupulous characters could descend upon the riding, and by virtue of their not receiving disaster relief (since they didn't live there when the disaster happened) they would have the franchise. So it would be effectively possible under this system to "purchase" a seat in the House of Commons.

Another related to tax cuts. In the name of "tax simplification" you replace your flat income tax with a payroll tax on employers. So most people wouldn't pay very much tax at all (but their employers would be taxed). An unscrupulous and corrupt government might pull something like this to stay in power.

And finally, what about graduates of Saganami Island? They are receiving a presumably very expensive education courtesy of the government. Any student receiving an equivalent education from a non-military academy would certainly be considered to be receiving a direct government benefit. And on an officers pay it would take a long time to pay that back. There is price money, of course, but according to Textev prize money is not taxed. So does the officer corp have the franchise?
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by quite possibly a cat   » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:32 pm

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drinksmuchcoffee wrote:
quite possibly a cat wrote:...
Yeah, I know. That's why I had a paragraph of evil suggestions next.

Not so sure it would self-destruct, but it has serious potential for abuse. The franchise has been restricted in all sorts of ways without leading to quick self-destruction.

...


A couple of thought experiments.

One is about tax cuts. Under the Manticoran system, any tax cut inevitably disenfranchises some group of people.

Another is disaster relief. If your home and livelihood are destroyed by a natural disaster, say an earthquake, forest fire, monster storm, or debris from a surprise attack by genetically engineered supermen (not sure the last is technically a *natural* disaster) you will probably receive some form of government aid. It is easy to imagine that it would take many, perhaps most, taxpayers years to "pay it back". In the meantime unscrupulous characters could descend upon the riding, and by virtue of their not receiving disaster relief (since they didn't live there when the disaster happened) they would have the franchise. So it would be effectively possible under this system to "purchase" a seat in the House of Commons.

Another related to tax cuts. In the name of "tax simplification" you replace your flat income tax with a payroll tax on employers. So most people wouldn't pay very much tax at all (but their employers would be taxed). An unscrupulous and corrupt government might pull something like this to stay in power.

And finally, what about graduates of Saganami Island? They are receiving a presumably very expensive education courtesy of the government. Any student receiving an equivalent education from a non-military academy would certainly be considered to be receiving a direct government benefit. And on an officers pay it would take a long time to pay that back. There is price money, of course, but according to Textev prize money is not taxed. So does the officer corp have the franchise?

Yeah, this basically demonstrates all the reasons its a problematic part of the constitution. Its open to horrific abuse. The payroll tax idea would create a tax incidence that is different than the one who nominally pays the tax.

Then the government can just issue paychecks to a favored group for doing no work. Beached officers are an example of this. Or they could just pay above market rates for work. We see this with Young getting a job and the payment that went with it despite the fact the man provided negative value to the RMN.

Next, the government can play games with what counts as a benefit and what doesn't. I suspect Saganami simply doesn't charge tuition and doesn't call it a government benefit. If so, this would be a pretty blatant example of a government benefit that isn't counted as a tax. You can't even plausibly claim that Saganami slots only went to those qualified since we see the likes of Young there.

Ultimately it sounds like a good idea in that it only lets those who contribute vote and ensures people can't vote themselves free stuff. However it doesn't do that at all. Instead it simply encourages people who vote themselves free stuff, lie about it. Hardly an improvement! :lol:
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by ldwechsler   » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:12 pm

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quite possibly a cat wrote:
drinksmuchcoffee wrote:
Yeah, I know. That's why I had a paragraph of evil suggestions next.

Not so sure it would self-destruct, but it has serious potential for abuse. The franchise has been restricted in all sorts of ways without leading to quick self-destruction.

...


A couple of thought experiments.

One is about tax cuts. Under the Manticoran system, any tax cut inevitably disenfranchises some group of people.

Another is disaster relief. If your home and livelihood are destroyed by a natural disaster, say an earthquake, forest fire, monster storm, or debris from a surprise attack by genetically engineered supermen (not sure the last is technically a *natural* disaster) you will probably receive some form of government aid. It is easy to imagine that it would take many, perhaps most, taxpayers years to "pay it back". In the meantime unscrupulous characters could descend upon the riding, and by virtue of their not receiving disaster relief (since they didn't live there when the disaster happened) they would have the franchise. So it would be effectively possible under this system to "purchase" a seat in the House of Commons.

Another related to tax cuts. In the name of "tax simplification" you replace your flat income tax with a payroll tax on employers. So most people wouldn't pay very much tax at all (but their employers would be taxed). An unscrupulous and corrupt government might pull something like this to stay in power.

And finally, what about graduates of Saganami Island? They are receiving a presumably very expensive education courtesy of the government. Any student receiving an equivalent education from a non-military academy would certainly be considered to be receiving a direct government benefit. And on an officers pay it would take a long time to pay that back. There is price money, of course, but according to Textev prize money is not taxed. So does the officer corp have the franchise?

Yeah, this basically demonstrates all the reasons its a problematic part of the constitution. Its open to horrific abuse. The payroll tax idea would create a tax incidence that is different than the one who nominally pays the tax.

Then the government can just issue paychecks to a favored group for doing no work. Beached officers are an example of this. Or they could just pay above market rates for work. We see this with Young getting a job and the payment that went with it despite the fact the man provided negative value to the RMN.

Next, the government can play games with what counts as a benefit and what doesn't. I suspect Saganami simply doesn't charge tuition and doesn't call it a government benefit. If so, this would be a pretty blatant example of a government benefit that isn't counted as a tax. You can't even plausibly claim that Saganami slots only went to those qualified since we see the likes of Young there.

Ultimately it sounds like a good idea in that it only lets those who contribute vote and ensures people can't vote themselves free stuff. However it doesn't do that at all. Instead it simply encourages people who vote themselves free stuff, lie about it. Hardly an improvement! :lol:[/quote]

There are always issues. I think RFC meant to do a quickie explanation to show a "Rational" system. But the devil is
in the details.

Chances are the basic idea is to get those people who are non-productive off voter roles. Presumably if you earn very little money, you pay low taxes. If you don't get government benefits you are still ahead.

I think RFC mainly wanted to describe a very limited government function but a real description could take pages. Does building a bridge to a town count against each person in the town? What happens with disasters? And so force.

While interesting, I prefer RFC to think more about wiping out MAlign.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Bluesqueak   » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:55 am

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drinksmuchcoffee wrote:
quite possibly a cat wrote:...
Yeah, I know. That's why I had a paragraph of evil suggestions next.

Not so sure it would self-destruct, but it has serious potential for abuse. The franchise has been restricted in all sorts of ways without leading to quick self-destruction.

...


A couple of thought experiments.

One is about tax cuts. Under the Manticoran system, any tax cut inevitably disenfranchises some group of people.

Another is disaster relief. If your home and livelihood are destroyed by a natural disaster, say an earthquake, forest fire, monster storm, or debris from a surprise attack by genetically engineered supermen (not sure the last is technically a *natural* disaster) you will probably receive some form of government aid. It is easy to imagine that it would take many, perhaps most, taxpayers years to "pay it back". In the meantime unscrupulous characters could descend upon the riding, and by virtue of their not receiving disaster relief (since they didn't live there when the disaster happened) they would have the franchise. So it would be effectively possible under this system to "purchase" a seat in the House of Commons.

Another related to tax cuts. In the name of "tax simplification" you replace your flat income tax with a payroll tax on employers. So most people wouldn't pay very much tax at all (but their employers would be taxed). An unscrupulous and corrupt government might pull something like this to stay in power.

And finally, what about graduates of Saganami Island? They are receiving a presumably very expensive education courtesy of the government. Any student receiving an equivalent education from a non-military academy would certainly be considered to be receiving a direct government benefit. And on an officers pay it would take a long time to pay that back. There is price money, of course, but according to Textev prize money is not taxed. So does the officer corp have the franchise?


I think you're missing the possible purpose of the tax rule, which isn't primarily to exclude people from the franchise. It's probably there to encourage people to work. To create an 'everybody works' culture.

Remember that, until Manticore became the Star Empire, its biggest problem was always the sheer lack of warm bodies for all the things it needs to do. That's been true from the beginning - the entire aristocratic/monarchical government began because they needed to import new people and wanted to make sure the founding families stayed in charge.

Also remember that at least one Manticoran (Terenkhov, I think) expressed horror at the limited safety net available to the then Talbott Cluster.

Also remember that they do have an aristocracy, and many of those aristocrats are quite wealthy enough that their kids don't have to work.

Also remember that even severely disabled people like Emily Alexander-Harrington have jobs.

Also remember that there's no minimum amount for the franchise - one penny more in tax than you've received in benefits, and you vote.

The conclusion is that the system is set up to create a climate where everyone who can work, does work. In a world where you don't get the franchise if you don't pay tax, and there's a shortage of labour, you've got a fairly good chance of avoiding your brand new aristocracy becoming a set of useless drones. There'll always be some - just as there'll always be people who've lost the franchise through no fault of their own. But the tax system seems to be set up so that you cannot vote unless you contribute more to Manticore's society than you take out - and to create a climate where having a job is just taken for granted.

I'm sure RFC could get a bit more detailed about whether things like 'disaster relief' are considered 'benefits' - but since he's waxed eloquent about how horrible OFS are for mortgaging planets to the hilt to pay for disaster relief, I suspect Manticore considers disaster relief a 'public good' rather than a 'government benefit'.

Tax cuts - wouldn't disenfranchise anyone unless you also raise the tax threshold. They also have to get past the Commons. One penny, remember?

In the world outside the United States, 'payroll taxes' are considered tax. The notion of saying that so-and-so isn't a 'taxpayer' because they're only at the National Insurance level and haven't hit the 'income tax' level would be considered a bit weird.

Manticore, from the description, only has one tax - called income tax - and until the Havenite war build up, probably didn't need any income tax. It's there purely so that citizens make a direct contribution to their governance.

As for military personnel should be disenfranchised - I think the idea was tried out in Starship Troopers. But again, it misses the point of the Manticoran franchise. Military personnel are not receiving 'government benefits'. They are providing value to the Star Kingdom of Manticore (by defending it from all enemies, foreign and domestic) and are paid for providing that value. Ditto all other government employees who are working at something that is useful and necessary. Manticore needs every warm body available - it has money to burn, tech coming out of its ears, but until it became a Star Empire, it had a labour shortage.

One way of getting those warm bodies to be officers is to offer a 'free' education in return for their labour. One way of getting those warm bodies to be ratings is to provide degree-level specialist training in return for their labour. In both cases the education isn't really 'free'. It's 'payment in kind', with an understanding that the trainee balances out the cost of the initial training by then serving in the military for an agreed number of years. The military reserves the right to 'write off' the payment in kind if someone is completely useless, but for most people attending Saganami Island, they're simply in a situation where they effectively pay for their education after they graduate, not before.

The alternative is expecting every officer and rating to pay for their own training by going to college first - by which time (remember, Manticore has a labour shortage) they'll have found a much more comfortable and safer civilian job and won't fancy joining the Navy.

Don't confuse 'government benefits' with 'government job'. There's a difference between safety net benefits - where the whole point is that the recipients can't work - and paying for necessary labour, just as the private sector does.
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