Remaining holes in SLN intel

I deleted much of the older post; as noted by "(snip)".

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:Is the SLN also still in the dark about the stubbornness of Manty defensive fire?

Please forgive this question, but what is the hitting power of the new Cataphracts in comparison to Manty missiles or even pre-GA Peep hitting power? Tamaguchi seems to think they've got a very big bite if they can get them through.

Depends on which Cataphract.
(snip)
Cataphract C is based on the warhead of the Trebuchet capital (SD) missile, but is so large it can only be fired from pods.

(snip)

I don't recall a direct comparison between SLN and RMN warhead power/efficiency. But at a guess they're likely at least modestly more powerful than the warhead on the latest Mk16 Mod-G CA/BC missiles (said to be almost as powerful as the 1905-era pre-war RMN capital missile warheads) but noticeably less powerful than the latest Mk23 capital MDMs.

In chapter 12 of _Shadow of Freedom_, it is noted that the Mod G version of the M16 dual drive missile had a yield greater than the SLN's brand new Trebuchet capital ship missile.

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:In chapter 12 of _Shadow of Freedom_, it is noted that the Mod G version of the M16 dual drive missile had a yield greater than the SLN's brand new Trebuchet capital ship missile.

Good find.

Weird Harold wrote:

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:In chapter 12 of _Shadow of Freedom_, it is noted that the Mod G version of the M16 dual drive missile had a yield greater than the SLN's brand new Trebuchet capital ship missile.

Good find.

Another reason to scoff at Sollie naval intelligence. They are building weapons that are outclassed even as they are being built.

Of course, it's the crews on naval ships who'll suffer.

I was reminded of this when I just saw "Wonder Woman", where a top general shrugs and says it's a soldiers place to die when confronted with news of a new weapon.

Sound like what MAlign is saying although not to the Sollie public.

The SLN is still firmly attached to closing to energy weapons range after having softened up the opposition with missles. Very much closing to broadsides as fleet engagements tactics and the ships, espeicialy their SDs are configured that way.

SEM and RH have retained energy weapons for close work but the concentration is missles, particularly the dual/mult-drive long range type that allow the to engage way out beyond any energy weapons fire. They also intend to stay well away from energy range of anything if they can help it. Speed, reach and better commuinications/control are a massive advantage (and their weapons are uniformly more powerful) so they are not going to close with the SLN ships which are designed to close and fight at energy range.

This also shows the development approach of the SLN vs the GA. To a great extent, the Alignment is both driving and following the League/SLN approch which is more adding size to the weapons while accepting relative reduction in power to extend the reach of it's missles. They are improving the range in smallish incremental steps but the throw weight is going down. You still don't want to get hit with the missille warheads but the GA has improved in different directions and magnitude. It does also help that they have figured out better tactical control and communications for the weapons and that the defensive systems have also both improved in range, control and approach. The probably most major difference in approch is the use of modern LACs to add a more layered and deeper CM screen.

The Alignment has some impressive new weapons which are primarily based as systems built around the Spider Drive and new stealth capabilitys. Looking at the Graser Torpedoes, they are essentiay capital ship grasers as the warhead of a Spider Drive drone.

If I were being devious, I would think that what Honor had that Grayson officer doing with the stripping out of SLN SD grasers from Fillertas former fleet could just be to also make a crapload of of non-Spider GTs which could be seeded into those shoals of pods that make up things like Moriarty and other defensive systems. Why? Because "everybody knows" that once things like pods deployed in defensive patterns are just so much metal once you have fired the missiles and the attackers wedges are just going to destroy the spent pods as they move through that volume of space where the pods were deployed.
Directional (and at least a little mobile) mines, not based on nuclear warheads even with laser heads but capital ship grasers. Really nice and powerful minefield hiding in plain sight. Whoops:)
And the majority of the components are SLN weapons. Sweet.

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:I deleted much of the older post; as noted by "(snip)".

In chapter 12 of _Shadow of Freedom_, it is noted that the Mod G version of the M16 dual drive missile had a yield greater than the SLN's brand new Trebuchet capital ship missile.

I’ll echo Weird Harold; good find.
(And please feel free to snip or quote small points my posts as much as needed when replying)

Brigade XO wrote:The Alignment has some impressive new weapons which are primarily based as systems built around the Spider Drive and new stealth capabilitys. Looking at the Graser Torpedoes, they are essentiay capital ship grasers as the warhead of a Spider Drive drone.

Just a quick correction, technically the graser those torps carry is much lighter than that.
[quote="Mission of Honor: Ch 28]Whereas the Royal Manticoran Navy had concentrated on improving the efficiency of its standard laser heads, Daniel Detweiler’s R&D staff had taken another approach. They’d figured out how to squeeze what amounted to a cruiser-grade graser projector into something small enough to deploy independently.[/quote] however just like Shrike-B's (with the upgrade grav lensing on their BC grade graser) can potentially punch through SD armor if they get close enough, the graser torp can slip in close enough that the terminal effects from the graser are far more than you'd expect from a CL grade graser at normal engagement ranges.

Brigade XO wrote:The SLN is still firmly attached to closing to energy weapons range after having softened up the opposition with missles. Very much closing to broadsides as fleet engagements tactics and the ships, espeicialy their SDs are configured that way.

SEM and RH have retained energy weapons for close work but the concentration is missles, particularly the dual/mult-drive long range type that allow the to engage way out beyond any energy weapons fire. They also intend to stay well away from energy range of anything if they can help it. Speed, reach and better commuinications/control are a massive advantage (and their weapons are uniformly more powerful) so they are not going to close with the SLN ships which are designed to close and fight at energy range.

This also shows the development approach of the SLN vs the GA. To a great extent, the Alignment is both driving and following the League/SLN approch which is more adding size to the weapons while accepting relative reduction in power to extend the reach of it's missles. They are improving the range in smallish incremental steps but the throw weight is going down. You still don't want to get hit with the missille warheads but the GA has improved in different directions and magnitude. It does also help that they have figured out better tactical control and communications for the weapons and that the defensive systems have also both improved in range, control and approach. The probably most major difference in approch is the use of modern LACs to add a more layered and deeper CM screen.

The Alignment has some impressive new weapons which are primarily based as systems built around the Spider Drive and new stealth capabilitys. Looking at the Graser Torpedoes, they are essentiay capital ship grasers as the warhead of a Spider Drive drone.

If I were being devious, I would think that what Honor had that Grayson officer doing with the stripping out of SLN SD grasers from Fillertas former fleet could just be to also make a crapload of of non-Spider GTs which could be seeded into those shoals of pods that make up things like Moriarty and other defensive systems. Why? Because "everybody knows" that once things like pods deployed in defensive patterns are just so much metal once you have fired the missiles and the attackers wedges are just going to destroy the spent pods as they move through that volume of space where the pods were deployed.
Directional (and at least a little mobile) mines, not based on nuclear warheads even with laser heads but capital ship grasers. Really nice and powerful minefield hiding in plain sight. Whoops:)
And the majority of the components are SLN weapons. Sweet.

Eg. The SLN doesn't really get the laser head increased missile effectiveness. Like they've seen the reports on what they can do, but don't actually believe it in their guts. I blame it on many things, but the age of the SLN leadership meant they were already pretty old when the laser head was really getting going.

Compare to the RMN. The laser head was really developed when Hamish was about 40, and he was involved. Despite being of 'the traditionalist school' they recognized the change in deadliness to reevaluate ship design, and put a larger emphasis on missiles and anti-missile capability.

SLN leadership is a generation before Hamish, and haven't ever seen the pointy end of a stick in combat. So there's been no real appreciation that Wallers can be killed by missiles. Its part of why SLN laser head design lags behind. The powers that be don't really believe missiles are effective against wallers.

The SLN still doesn't seem to realize that, as far as the neobarbs are concerned, they are at war. With the time it takes for simple communications to disseminate to League ships, the war could end and they'd still be fighting for months.

Interior lines of communication in the Honorverse is a copper-plated Cordelia Ransom.

I wonder if the SLN knows about the level of automation aboard RMN ships? Which should equate to room for more tech. Am I mistaken that the overall size of SL and Manticoran SD's are about the same, except for the level of automation and that some are SD(P)s? Are they even aware of pod designs?

cthia wrote:Am I mistaken that the overall size of SL and Manticoran SD's are about the same, ...

Yes, you are mistaken.

A Scientist-class or Vega-class SLN SD is about the same size as the RMN's pre-war DN. Current RMN SD(P)s run about 30% bigger than SLN SDs

To date the SLN hasn't gotten a chance to see an RMN waller up close and personal other than after being defeated. Everyone who's been sent back to Sol has gone back with his tail between his legs and treated as a pariah when he got home. That meant that any sensor records, reports or messages he delivered were generally ignored as being outlandish, CYOA type stuff. More Sollie arrogance, being allowed to drive things.

So no, the SLN doesn't seem to be aware of SD(P)'s, despite all these years that RHN and RMN have been throwing thousands of missiles back and forth at each other. To the SLN the RMN has bigger ships in order to promote bigger weapons, without considering that they're using that hull space for more PDLCs, CM launchers and armor to survive the new environment. There's been a number of comments about 'Mantie big assed ___' take your pick of ship class.

There is also no indication that the SLN is at all aware of the reduction in crew sizes and vast increases in automation which have gone on through out the RMN. You might suspect that if the SLN had some half way decent intel services they'd pick up on any of these things. I really think that the MWW stretches Sollie stupidity a bit far in this case. It's become a plot device more than anything.