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Remaining holes in SLN intel

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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by cthia   » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:21 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:
pappilon wrote:This is a very interesting Thread. There are several valid points. I just have one question.

What is the strategic value of a handful of diplomats? Seizing them is yet another act of war. Beside the threat to their personal safety, there is no point. I'm pretty sure E-III isn't going to reverse both Lacoons and recall her fleets when she sees Carmichael being paraded like a war criminal in front of the cameras on the 7:00 news. They (the Mandarins) can't charge him with treason, he's not a SL citizen. Chaging him with war crimes is more dubious than finding 1001 uses for those obsolete SL SDs in orbit around Manticore.

The Beowulf delegation? Perhaps it may have some marginal effect on the plebescite, but seizing their delegates without a declaration of war is yet another act of war against a member planet. It would more likely drive the vote from 82% to 90%, than it would drive it from 82 to 74%. And even at 74% ...


Something else we don't know. Is there diplomatic immunity at all in the Honorverse. After all, the League is one general bocy that controls most known planets. So we have the League, Haven, Manticore, Andermann, Grayson and a handful of others. The whole idea of diplomatic immunity might or might not exist.

When Honor came to Haven in MoH, she had a fleet behind her. But Eloise came in to Manticore in a single ship.

We don't know because the issue has really never come up.

Since there are diplomats, my guess would be yes. I recall Honor being extended the political courtesy befitting a diplomat, while in that capacity, on Haven. As was Courvoisier on Grayson.

At any rate, I would imagine that diplomatic immunity would be covered under the broad strokes of the Deneb Accords anyway.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by cthia   » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:54 pm

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Albeit, cosignatory of the Deneb Accords is probably a moot point that has become a mute point with the League.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Eagleeye   » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:25 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:
Something else we don't know. Is there diplomatic immunity at all in the Honorverse. After all, the League is one general bocy that controls most known planets. So we have the League, Haven, Manticore, Andermann, Grayson and a handful of others. The whole idea of diplomatic immunity might or might not exist.

When Honor came to Haven in MoH, she had a fleet behind her. But Eloise came in to Manticore in a single ship.

We don't know because the issue has really never come up.


Oh, but we know! It's in A Rising Thunder. The League didn't care about diplomatic immunity, because noone was crazy enough to go on the mat with it (until Manticore dared to question the superiority of the Almighty and Invincible Solarian League and its Navy, that was). There was simply no need for it. That's the reason the Mandarins discussed the incarceration of the Manticoran (and even the Beowulfan) ambassadors to the League.

Outside the League - that's a different kettle of fish. There it is at least custom (and I think, even codified interstellar law - but I can't give textev for that) that ambassadors and other diplomatic personal have immunity and are allowed to go home unhindered in case of crisis or open war.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by cthia   » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:48 pm

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Eagleeye wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:
Something else we don't know. Is there diplomatic immunity at all in the Honorverse. After all, the League is one general bocy that controls most known planets. So we have the League, Haven, Manticore, Andermann, Grayson and a handful of others. The whole idea of diplomatic immunity might or might not exist.

When Honor came to Haven in MoH, she had a fleet behind her. But Eloise came in to Manticore in a single ship.

We don't know because the issue has really never come up.


Oh, but we know! It's in A Rising Thunder. The League didn't care about diplomatic immunity, because noone was crazy enough to go on the mat with it (until Manticore dared to question the superiority of the Almighty and Invincible Solarian League and its Navy, that was). There was simply no need for it. That's the reason the Mandarins discussed the incarceration of the Manticoran (and even the Beowulfan) ambassadors to the League.

Outside the League - that's a different kettle of fish. There it is at least custom (and I think, even codified interstellar law - but I can't give textev for that) that ambassadors and other diplomatic personal have immunity and are allowed to go home unhindered in case of crisis or open war.


That is also why they didn't see a need to have an Embaasy on other planets. Our 800# weigh-in, is our Embassy!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by pappilon   » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:08 pm

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cthia wrote:
Eagleeye wrote:
Oh, but we know! It's in A Rising Thunder. The League didn't care about diplomatic immunity, because noone was crazy enough to go on the mat with it (until Manticore dared to question the superiority of the Almighty and Invincible Solarian League and its Navy, that was). There was simply no need for it. That's the reason the Mandarins discussed the incarceration of the Manticoran (and even the Beowulfan) ambassadors to the League.

Outside the League - that's a different kettle of fish. There it is at least custom (and I think, even codified interstellar law - but I can't give textev for that) that ambassadors and other diplomatic personal have immunity and are allowed to go home unhindered in case of crisis or open war.


That is also why they didn't see a need to have an Embaasy on other planets. Our 800# weigh-in, is our Embassy!


And the question remains. What, exactly is their value to the mandarins/SL as their world is coming apart at the edges? Yes, there should be diplomatic immunity. More to the point, Carmichale should have been recalled as soon as Filareta's attack was supposed to commence.

That he wasn't or didn't take it upon himself to leave speaks more of Manticore's desire for a diplomatic settlement than any common sense on the part of the Mandarins.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by cthia   » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:19 pm

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I really do believe the rudiments of diplomatic immunity will be found within the Deneb Accords. Thing is, whether or not the League will respect the Deneb Accords is a wildcard.

Someone else brought up the subject of the delegation's diplomatic ship. It has either been dispensed back to Manticore or it has been seized. Being a diplomatic ship, it would have been unlawful to seize. Yet, in the face of so many Solarian ships that were either destroyed, or captured and sent to the breakers, what's one diplomatic ship?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by tlb   » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:19 pm

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cthia wrote:I really do believe the rudiments of diplomatic immunity will be found within the Deneb Accords. Thing is, whether or not the League will respect the Deneb Accords is a wildcard.

Someone else brought up the subject of the delegation's diplomatic ship. It has either been dispensed back to Manticore or it has been seized. Being a diplomatic ship, it would have been unlawful to seize. Yet, in the face of so many Solarian ships that were either destroyed, or captured and sent to the breakers, what's one diplomatic ship?

I do not think that there is anything about diplomatic immunity within the Deneb Accords, which is basically their version of the Geneva Convention on the conduct of war and treatment of POWs. That is the only reading we get of it in the places that the Accords have been discussed. So if no diplomatic immunity, then there is nothing unlawful about seizing a diplomatic ship.

Here is some of the discussion I have hound about the Deneb Accords:
Chapter 23 Mission of Honor
...
Michelle saw O'Cleary's eyes flash at the term "prisoners of war," but she didn't especially care. In point of fact, she was conceding them a status she wasn't required to under interstellar law, and O'Cleary knew it. There'd been no formal declaration of war when Crandall attacked the sovereign territory of another star nation. Technically, her actions amounted to piracy on the grand scale, and Michelle was under no legal obligation to accord her officers and crews the courtesies normally due regular POWs. The fact that she'd allowed them to surrender under the provisions of the Deneb Accords meant she'd chosen to extend that status to them, but whether or not she was legally required to continue to extend it was what the lawyers like to call "a gray area."

Chapter 18 In Enemy Hands
...
The best bet is the Deneb Accords, Tourville told himself. God knows StateSec's violated them often enough, but they're still the official basis for the treatment of captured personnel, and they explicitly charge their signatories' militaries with seeing to it that military POWs are properly treated. And the Solarian League's accepted responsibility for monitoring the treatment of both sides' prisoners in this war.
...
Chapter 20
...
"My concern with the observance of the Deneb Accords stems from my own reading of the attitude of the Solarian League's inspectors and, if you'll pardon my saying so, of the relevant political direction I have, in fact received." All of which, he reflected, was true enough, although not in the way Ransom had in mind.
"What 'relevant political direction'?" Ransom demanded suspiciously.
"Public Information's official statements have always emphasized that the PRH will treat its prisoners 'properly,' a definition which most star nations apply to actions in keeping with the provisions of the Deneb Accords. It was never specifically stated that we would act within those limitations, but that certainly appeared to be implied, and I do know that several Solarian League representatives with whom I've spoken attached that interpretation to our statements. And while I realize disinformation has a critical role to play in wartime, I've received no directives to suggest our intention in this case was to mislead. Under the circumstances, the only conclusion I felt I could draw was that I was, indeed, to consider the Accords binding upon my actions and those of my subordinates. I certainly wasn't prepared to risk conflicts with the Committee's apparent intentions by instructing my officers to adopt any other position."
"I see." Ransom leaned back in her chair, crossed her legs, and cocked her head once more. "I hadn't thought of it in those terms, Citizen Admiral," she said after a moment, in much less chilling tones. "You raise a point which the Committee clearly hasn't considered in sufficient detail. A coherent, top-down announcement will be required if we expect our commanders to know just what policy is, won't it?" She pursed her lips, then nodded slowly. "Yes, I can see that. In fact, I wonder why I hadn't seen it already? We've certainly recognized the need to clearly enunciate other policy changes. I see Secretary Saint-Just and I obviously have to sit down and thrash this one out, as well, in order to promulgate the proper directives."
"I'm sure the Committee will make the right decision, Ma'am." At least, I hope to hell Pierre and Saint-Just will overrule you, anyway! "May I make an interim suggestion to govern our actions in the meantime, however?"
"Certainly," Ransom said almost graciously.
"Thank you." Theisman carefully refrained from wiping his brow and tried to sound reasonable and confident but nonconfrontational, with no sign of the agonizing care with which he chose his words. "On a purely pragmatic level, I think it would pay us to apply the Accords to the general population of POWs without requiring—or allowing—local military commanders to make decisions to the contrary without specific directions from above." He raised a deprecating hand as she opened her mouth. "I'm not suggesting that political decisions won't have to be made in some individual cases, but I see three major advantages in relying on the Accords in most cases.
"One is that the military requires some general policy upon which to base its actions. I realize our commissioners will be available to advise us, but without such a general policy, we'll find ourselves in a position in which every system, fleet, task force, and squadron commander and his commissioner will have to set their own individual policies. I'm afraid the only possible outcome of that could be chaos. If, on the other hand, we continue to use the Accords as a primary guide, local commanders can make their decisions on that basis to ensure consistent dispositions of captured personnel. Where deviations from that policy are properly indicated, appropriate political direction can always be transmitted to the commanders in question at a later time."
He paused until Ransom nodded grudgingly. "And the other advantages?" she asked.
"The second one," Theisman said, "is the propaganda opportunities adherence to the Accords would provide—and, conversely, the dangers which might arise from an official, wholesale abandonment of them. The Accords are important to the decision-making segments of both the Alliance and the Solarian League. Without admitting that those decision-makers are the legitimate representatives of the People—" but without admitting that they aren't, either! "—we can't deny the objective reality that they are making the decisions at this moment. Among those decisions are the ones under which we're receiving clandestine support from certain elements within the League. If we denounce the Accords, those supporting the war against us will certainly attempt to portray us in the worst possible light for domestic consumption, which could have the twin effects of stiffening the Manties' wills and providing them with additional leverage with which to attempt to cut off the aid we're receiving from the League.
"If, on the other hand, we continue to abide by the Accords' stipulations, we can present ourselves as the natural allies of the people of the Star Kingdom. Remember that only about twenty percent of captured enemy personnel are officers, Citizen Secretary, and not even all of them come from the aristocracy or plutocracy. Put another way, at least eighty percent of the prisoners who profit from our observance of the Accords will come from the other classes of Manticoran society. By emphasizing that we treat our prisoners as the Accords provide, we'll reassure our natural allies among the enemy's population that we'll treat them well if they surrender . . . or come over to our side."


PS. If the Solarian League is supposed to be monitoring treatment of POWs in the war between Haven and Manticore, then what happened to all the reports from observers that should have been in place?
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Weird Harold   » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:03 pm

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tlb wrote:PS. If the Solarian League is supposed to be monitoring treatment of POWs in the war between Haven and Manticore, then what happened to all the reports from observers that should have been in place?


What? You expect the SL equivalent of the Red Cross to share information with the SLN?

Ain't gonna happen. Doves never share information with Hawks.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by quite possibly a cat   » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:13 am

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tlb wrote:
PS. If the Solarian League is supposed to be monitoring treatment of POWs in the war between Haven and Manticore, then what happened to all the reports from observers that should have been in place?

Presumably they got mostly ignored by the higher ups. Much like the SDF observers.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by pappilon   » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:31 am

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Way back in OBS, wasn't there a Havenite Consulate vessel or two just floating in orbit? Yeah, yeah, those are just neobarbs playing at delusions of real government and rules and niceties that really mean something. Still, sometimes the niceties should be observed. There's already a real live shooting war going on. What's a few more acts of war tossed in the food processor? Like what are Beowulf and Manticore gonna do about it?
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