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Remaining holes in SLN intel

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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by kzt   » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:10 pm

kzt
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Maldorian wrote:Manticore is a whormhole jump away from solarian core worlds and it is a war there. War, blood and sex sells. The most people should have a raw picture about the fight between Manticore and Haven, that they use primary missles to destroy their enemies and the new "pod thing" could be mentioned somewhere , too.

How many decent battle analysis of the war between Ukraine and Russia have you read in the NYT? There is a lot of pretty scary stuff being deployed by Russia, but unless you read the specialized military journals you see nothing about it.

And the MA dominated the department of the SL that mostly controlled the press.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by ldwechsler   » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:19 pm

ldwechsler
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kzt wrote:
Maldorian wrote:Manticore is a whormhole jump away from solarian core worlds and it is a war there. War, blood and sex sells. The most people should have a raw picture about the fight between Manticore and Haven, that they use primary missles to destroy their enemies and the new "pod thing" could be mentioned somewhere , too.

How many decent battle analysis of the war between Ukraine and Russia have you read in the NYT? There is a lot of pretty scary stuff being deployed by Russia, but unless you read the specialized military journals you see nothing about it.

And the MA dominated the department of the SL that mostly controlled the press.


It doesn't even take a lot of people to do that. Take one bought boss and a group of brown nosers and well, you get what you want.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:22 pm

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Maldorian wrote:That count for hard military intel, but what is with the news?

Manticore is a whormhole jump away from solarian core worlds and it is a war there. War, blood and sex sells. ...


In systems like Beowulf and others a WH jump away, and possible a few in the next layer out from each terminus, there might be a bit of interest on the part of the public. Closer in to Sol, the Ministry Of Education controls 99% of the news and The MoE isn't in the business of even hinting that the SLN isn't the most advanced and powerful Navy in existence.

If the MAlign doesn't have someone fairly high in the MoE, as well as Audrey O'Hanrahan and the colleague who passed on the faked New Tuscany footage, I'll be very surprised.
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.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by quite possibly a cat   » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:31 pm

quite possibly a cat
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Maldorian wrote:
quite possibly a cat wrote:
The SLN had reasonably accurate reports from the SDF observers. Those reports had even gotten as far as Bygn. No one was stopping the gathering of intel on the Manticore-Haven war. We know this since there was plenty of intel gathered AND delivered.

David has directly said that the MA was preventing the SLN from properly understanding what was going on.


That count for hard military intel, but what is with the news?
Manticore is a whormhole jump away from solarian core worlds and it is a war there. War, blood and sex sells. The most people should have a raw picture about the fight between Manticore and Haven, that they use primary missles to destroy their enemies and the new "pod thing" could be mentioned somewhere , too.

Most people probably aren't interested in a zany Neo-barb war. Those that are can obviously get plenty of news reports. Except to the SLN the news reports would be viewed with even less credibility than the SDF reports
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by saber964   » Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:45 pm

saber964
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Theemile wrote:
saber964 wrote:You guys are overlooking basic arrogance of the SL/N. They suffer from a heavy dose of NIH (Not Invented Here). The SDF's were sending back reports on the Manticore-Haven war but they were (miss)filed and forgotten. Daud and Teague were looking for them. Remember Filaritas best information on Harrington was basically puff piece news stories. How much would the arrogant SLN discount stories like 2nd Yeltsin or 1st Hancock or Hades.


In contrast, even a Manty Destroyer's database had brief bios on virtually every Solly flag officer, and many captains.... that's millions of entrys.



They probably got it by way of Beowulf. They would have the inside track to easily obtain the information. Also Maya would be able to send updates as they are a "loyal" sector.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Hegemon   » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:09 pm

Hegemon
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Somewhat off-topic:
I want to discuss about the real hole in SLN collective intelligence: why no Admiral had enough sense to see plainly that the Solarian League was ripe for a military coup and to seize the opportunity with both hands. What I mean is that if the Solarian public accepted for centuries to be ruled by unelected bureaucrats, it would hardly bat an eyelid to be ruled by another group of unelected bureaucrats, this time the ones commanding SDs and BCs. After all, this is what SLN Battle Fleet and Frontier Fleet are: two additional bureaucracies to the five main ones, but with all the real firepower.

This idea stuck me when I re-read the 2016 revised edition of Edward N. Luttwak's classic "Coup d’État: A Practical Handbook" He defines three preconditions for a military coup to be practicable: a) the political participation must be confined to a small fraction of the population; b) the target state must be substantially independent; c) the target state must have a political center, or, if there are several centers, these must be identifiable, and they must be politically, rather than ethnically, structured. The Solarian League meets all the three conditions !

Think about it: who really supports the Quintet (Kolokoltsov & co):
- The five bureaucracies they lead (including the OFS satraps);
- Some corrupt transstellars;
- Most of the Assembly;
- Many newsies.
- Bueller, Bueller ...

Now, let's say the Solarian CNO simply arrested the Quintet and told the five bureaucracies that the Navy are the new bosses in town or else, who would oppose him ? The answer is nobody of importance. The Solarian ministers could be taken into protective custody by the Navy and threatened with a form of 'Case Buccaneer' on their home planets. A few reporters could be disappeared or shot by 'criminals' in the street to frighten the rest (like Anna Politkovskaia), the transstellars would be told their bribes would be smaller but would go to CNO and other admirals or else their ships would be targeted by 'Case Buccaneer'. The CNO would order the local Frontier Fleet commanders to arrest the OFS satraps and assume their attributes.

The only way to prevent such military coups is to have in place control mechanisms over the armed forces (think Haven's People's Commissioners) combined with a Pretorian Guard hand-picked for its loyalty (think Haven StateSec's SDs and BCs). For example, in the 2016 preface of his book, Luttwak gives the example of Syria, where "even before the civil war now under way, the ruling regime of President Bashar al-Assad already had five separate and competing espionage services", whose main function is to keep their own armed forces under constant scrutiny, and also to run sting operations using agents posing as anti-regime conspirators to rat out disloyal officers and paralyze any would-be coup plotter.

To give another example, in USSR the Communist Party was also paranoid of a military coup and had several precautions against it:
- The screening for communist orthodoxy and political reliability on any officer candidate;
- The direct selection of all flag officers by the Party's Central Committee (or by the Politburo for those with three stars or more) after intense scrutiny on communist orthodoxy and political reliability;
- The personnel 'ethnic mixing and matching' to ensure that no large unit was composed overwhelmingly from one ethnicity (say, Ukrainian) and risked having Nationalist loyalties;
- The presence in Moscow of several NKVD/KGB 'Pretorian Guard' formations, such as the Kremlin Regiment aka UKMK (always a NKVD/KGB function, never an Army one);
- The presence in Moscow of several Army 'Pretorian Guard' formations, such as the 'Kantemirov' Tank Division and the 2nd Guards 'Taman' Motorised Infantry Division.

In USSR there were three additional 'leashes' to keep the army in check:
- Every Army battalion and higher had at least a Peoples' Commissar (replaced by the Political Officer or zampolit during WWII) who reported to the Party's Central Committee;
- Every Army battalion and higher had a 'Special section' headed by a NKVD/KGB officer (these sections were subordinated to a special NKVD branch called SMERSH during WWII);
- Every Army field and flag officer was assigned young female secretaries and telegraphists that were all agents of a third control structure called Peoples' Control or Rabkrin that reported directly to Stalin.

The Quintet has no such external control over SLN, no real power base and no popular legitimacy. A competently planned military coup would wipe them out and it is a miracle no Admiral tried it yet.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by kzt   » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:25 pm

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A competent SLMC LTC could wipe them all out. And the perfumed princes of the SLN.

Couldn't take over the SL, but could "fix" the government issues.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by phillies   » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:49 pm

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kzt wrote:A competent SLMC LTC could wipe them all out. And the perfumed princes of the SLN.

Couldn't take over the SL, but could "fix" the government issues.


Going back a book, what was the young lady's rank? The Marine?

As this has not happened, what is the likelihood that there are in fact hidden defense structures against this nonsense?
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by cthia   » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:55 pm

cthia
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Hegemon wrote:Somewhat off-topic:
I want to discuss about the real hole in SLN collective intelligence: why no Admiral had enough sense to see plainly that the Solarian League was ripe for a military coup and to seize the opportunity with both hands. What I mean is that if the Solarian public accepted for centuries to be ruled by unelected bureaucrats, it would hardly bat an eyelid to be ruled by another group of unelected bureaucrats, this time the ones commanding SDs and BCs. After all, this is what SLN Battle Fleet and Frontier Fleet are: two additional bureaucracies to the five main ones, but with all the real firepower.

This idea stuck me when I re-read the 2016 revised edition of Edward N. Luttwak's classic "Coup d’État: A Practical Handbook" He defines three preconditions for a military coup to be practicable: a) the political participation must be confined to a small fraction of the population; b) the target state must be substantially independent; c) the target state must have a political center, or, if there are several centers, these must be identifiable, and they must be politically, rather than ethnically, structured. The Solarian League meets all the three conditions !

Think about it: who really supports the Quintet (Kolokoltsov & co):
- The five bureaucracies they lead (including the OFS satraps);
- Some corrupt transstellars;
- Most of the Assembly;
- Many newsies.
- Bueller, Bueller ...

Now, let's say the Solarian CNO simply arrested the Quintet and told the five bureaucracies that the Navy are the new bosses in town or else, who would oppose him ? The answer is nobody of importance. The Solarian ministers could be taken into protective custody by the Navy and threatened with a form of 'Case Buccaneer' on their home planets. A few reporters could be disappeared or shot by 'criminals' in the street to frighten the rest (like Anna Politkovskaia), the transstellars would be told their bribes would be smaller but would go to CNO and other admirals or else their ships would be targeted by 'Case Buccaneer'. The CNO would order the local Frontier Fleet commanders to arrest the OFS satraps and assume their attributes.

The only way to prevent such military coups is to have in place control mechanisms over the armed forces (think Haven's People's Commissioners) combined with a Pretorian Guard hand-picked for its loyalty (think Haven StateSec's SDs and BCs). For example, in the 2016 preface of his book, Luttwak gives the example of Syria, where "even before the civil war now under way, the ruling regime of President Bashar al-Assad already had five separate and competing espionage services", whose main function is to keep their own armed forces under constant scrutiny, and also to run sting operations using agents posing as anti-regime conspirators to rat out disloyal officers and paralyze any would-be coup plotter.

To give another example, in USSR the Communist Party was also paranoid of a military coup and had several precautions against it:
- The screening for communist orthodoxy and political reliability on any officer candidate;
- The direct selection of all flag officers by the Party's Central Committee (or by the Politburo for those with three stars or more) after intense scrutiny on communist orthodoxy and political reliability;
- The personnel 'ethnic mixing and matching' to ensure that no large unit was composed overwhelmingly from one ethnicity (say, Ukrainian) and risked having Nationalist loyalties;
- The presence in Moscow of several NKVD/KGB 'Pretorian Guard' formations, such as the Kremlin Regiment aka UKMK (always a NKVD/KGB function, never an Army one);
- The presence in Moscow of several Army 'Pretorian Guard' formations, such as the 'Kantemirov' Tank Division and the 2nd Guards 'Taman' Motorised Infantry Division.

In USSR there were three additional 'leashes' to keep the army in check:
- Every Army battalion and higher had at least a Peoples' Commissar (replaced by the Political Officer or zampolit during WWII) who reported to the Party's Central Committee;
- Every Army battalion and higher had a 'Special section' headed by a NKVD/KGB officer (these sections were subordinated to a special NKVD branch called SMERSH during WWII);
- Every Army field and flag officer was assigned young female secretaries and telegraphists that were all agents of a third control structure called Peoples' Control or Rabkrin that reported directly to Stalin.

The Quintet has no such external control over SLN, no real power base and no popular legitimacy. A competently planned military coup would wipe them out and it is a miracle no Admiral tried it yet.


Very interesting post. The Mandarins were successful in pulling off their own coup, says one of my Romanian friends. So why not?

A mind from Bucuresti wrote:Someone should go about and pull a Theisman on the Mandarins. Bang bang, this is a coup. Effectively the same thing the Mandarins have done themselves. They have instigated their own coup and the entire apparatus of the Solarian League has made the coup so easy by putting every required key into their hands. I'm from Ro, we think in terms of coups.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Hegemon   » Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:18 pm

Hegemon
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cthia wrote:Very interesting post. The Mandarins were successful in pulling off their own coup, says one of my Romanian friends. So why not?

A mind from Bucuresti wrote:Someone should go about and pull a Theisman on the Mandarins. Bang bang, this is a coup. Effectively the same thing the Mandarins have done themselves. They have instigated their own coup and the entire apparatus of the Solarian League has made the coup so easy by putting every required key into their hands. I'm from Ro, we think in terms of coups.


Yes, the Mandarins' ascent to power can be called a coup.

My point is that the Solarian League real power structure is built on sand. There are seven illegitimate bureaucracies, but two of them (Battle Fleet and Frontier Fleet) have all the firepower aka, you know "the final argument of kings" (to quote the inscription Louis XIV of France ordered on every artillery piece).

The five Mandarins have NO popular power base, and the military power is not under their direct control. The five Mandarins and their bureaucracies can only cajole and bribe opinion leaders and politicians.

The CNO can match that (SLN is very rich, you know) but can also order anyone blown out of space. In the absence of any other checks and balances, this should have already made him by far the most powerful man in the Solarian League.
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