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Remaining holes in SLN intel

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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by lyonheart   » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:45 pm

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Hi Brigade XO,

Excellent points, if the SL tries to raid GA merchants, perhaps the mandarins might pause to consider what the GA could do raiding its merchant ships.

But instead of only 50 merchant raiders, imagine at least 3-400 minimum, possibly several hundred to a thousand below the wall, all with dozens of tractored pods, able to attack hundreds of star systems simultaneously at will, using MDM's well beyond the range of any system defenses, particularly the ~1200 that have only old LAC's if that for defense.

We don't have House of Lies yet, but the RoH could have assigned 6-8 already industrialized star systems each to build just BC's, CA's, CL's and DD's besides LAC's and CLAC's; so that in the almost 3 years since the war began they could have produced 2-3 thousand more hyper warships below the wall.

While the RHN's are certainly not as good as the RMN's they'd be far better than the SLN's; which combined with the RMN and GSN's , could total 6+ thousand or more given what the SEM produced in just the ten monthes since the June 1920 fleet Strength Chart which totaled nearly 4000 combined then (the losses of Manticore A, or BoMA as I used to refer to it, having more than been made good etc), the text implication that far more were commissioned in the next ten monthes before the Pearl Bay attack, so I wouldn't be surprised if the RMN had doubled its June 1920 numbers, while the GSN might be up 50% to ~3500 combined.

Even if the RHN only doubled its size, with the IAN up only 50% to 12-1300, the combined Haven sector total would be well over 7000, enough to not only provide plenty of cover for their merchant shipping but enable at least 1-2 thousand to concentrate on the SL.

Having been impressed by the Agamemnon BCP, I could see a RHN version with 240-288 larger RHN pods [16 missiles @] massing around the Nike's 2.4 M ton size, able to take out a couple dozen SLN BF SD's before reloading, or whole SLN FF BC squadrons with just a dozen pods, like Scotty could have.

Unleashing a couple hundred of them among a thousand or two GA merchant raiders could eliminate 2/3's of the SL members system infrastructure and freighters [if they don't join the GA in the aftermath of the Beowulf EE violation] in just 2-3 monthes, long before the mandarins realise what's happening.

Part of Honor's conversation with Kingsford might go something like this:

"Regarding your last point, the SL doesn't exist already; most of the former members [including the 1000-1200 we've visited beside those claiming to have more serious SDF's] in the last 3-4 monthes have voted to drop their SL membership and make treaties with us and/or their neighbors in preference to out of touch mandarins that taxed them far too much to favor their core friends while violating their own laws whenever it suits them."

"In case you're curious, over a quarter of the ex-members greeted us were quite friendly from the get go, and over half the rest warmed up to our offers rather rapidly, while only ~12% of the rest showed any interest in anything more than local associations, mainly along ethnic or cultural lines."

Feel free to add your own insights.

L


Brigade XO wrote:We have seen the Alignment using what are essentialy pirates in the past, certainly mercenary groups. The People's Republic Navy in Exile was a pirate force, not mercenary. Monica is/was running a shop as a mercenery supplier.

With Capt. Gweon providing input, the Alignment is pulling all sorts of strings with the raiding. Not perhaps a fine tuned control but certainly general impact. While killing both GA merchanting shipping (actual GA member merchant marine or independents who are trading with them) is one goal, killing GA warships is probably in the mix but that depends on your perspective. You look at this one way and the SLN is going to loose a lot more ships trying to kill GA warships. They might develop (and perhaps even report back on sucessfull tactics of they survive) ways to destroy either PRHN or RMN ships but the loss ratio is probably going to be very badly lopsided unless the SLN has overwhelming numbers and good ambush.
On the other hand, if they do the asymectrical warfare approch and kill merchants where the warships are not currently patrolling, they force the GA to change deployments and probably disburse the warships with both adds to the needs of both navies and makes it more likely that they can catch a GA ship alone to their advantage.

Remember that the Alignment is just as happy to kill off SLN ships and crews, particularly those who show initiative and creativity. Just the chaos of perhaps 50 actual warships engaging in commerce raiding- and just for destruction of shipping- is going to be a significant problem for all sorts of people. About the only one not effected is the Alignment since they don't have much in the way of "civilian" traffic out there to get hit.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by ldwechsler   » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:50 pm

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Posts: 1235
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Brigade XO wrote:We have seen the Alignment using what are essentialy pirates in the past, certainly mercenary groups. The People's Republic Navy in Exile was a pirate force, not mercenary. Monica is/was running a shop as a mercenery supplier.

With Capt. Gweon providing input, the Alignment is pulling all sorts of strings with the raiding. Not perhaps a fine tuned control but certainly general impact. While killing both GA merchanting shipping (actual GA member merchant marine or independents who are trading with them) is one goal, killing GA warships is probably in the mix but that depends on your perspective. You look at this one way and the SLN is going to loose a lot more ships trying to kill GA warships. They might develop (and perhaps even report back on sucessfull tactics of they survive) ways to destroy either PRHN or RMN ships but the loss ratio is probably going to be very badly lopsided unless the SLN has overwhelming numbers and good ambush.
On the other hand, if they do the asymectrical warfare approch and kill merchants where the warships are not currently patrolling, they force the GA to change deployments and probably disburse the warships with both adds to the needs of both navies and makes it more likely that they can catch a GA ship alone to their advantage.

Remember that the Alignment is just as happy to kill off SLN ships and crews, particularly those who show initiative and creativity. Just the chaos of perhaps 50 actual warships engaging in commerce raiding- and just for destruction of shipping- is going to be a significant problem for all sorts of people. About the only one not effected is the Alignment since they don't have much in the way of "civilian" traffic out there to get hit.


Politics moves faster than commerce raiding. Yes, ships can be sent off by the League. Paperwork will be done, a lot of it. And you can bet there will be people who know about it.

When GA ships get taken, they will raid commerce and they don't have to be everywhere in League space. There are certain planets that do a lot of business. They can pick up a lot of ships that way.

On the other hand, Manticore itself is basically, mostly, around one star. Haven is a good distance without wormholes from the League. Yes, the Talbot Cluster is more scattered but they would need some sort of base there. And New Tuscany is very unlikely to be cooperative.

The junctions will let a lot of GA navy ships in and they can wreak havoc.

And, yes, there might be hundreds of ships. But they will likely be getting in each others' way. And if a dozen or so smaller ships run into a couple of battlecruisers (even one, actually), it would be interesting. Sort of like a lion against house cats.


And all the while pressure will be growing on the Mandarins.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Brigade XO   » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:15 pm

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So far we are not seeing any GA commerce raiding. Actualy we have the two steps (so far) of Lacoon and that just keeps the SL flagged ships out of Manticoran controlled space.

It is not in either Manticore nor Haven's interest to be doing active commerce raiding. On the other hand, the SLN is going to make a lot of enemies destroying or siezing othewise neutral shipping out in the Verge etc and especialy inside the SL.
Sure, SLN commerce raiders are going to cause problems, loss of life and all sorts of economic disruption (mostly to the SL and non-allined systems & private companies) but unless the SLN gets consistantly lucky or figures out something repeatable that lets them engage and destroy GA warships, things are going to get interesting.

Imagine that the GA is regularly engaging "commerce raiders" in the form of SLN warships. What to do....well tell them to surrender and then attempt to cripple them if they try to fight or run. Actually, not such a good idea, if they engage, go for the kill and sort out the survivors. Then......hopefully these engagements are near inhabited planets....deposit the SLN crews (with nothing but the clothing on their backs) with the local system goverment and a affidavit citing the circumstances of the engagement. Send a report "home" at next opportunity. So in the not too distant future the SLN will be getting all sorts of demands for compensation for supporting said SLN personal and arranging for them to be sent ....well, wherever the SL want them sent.

Meanwhile, the GA starts dropping lists and reports into the various news services at the same time they forward the information to the SLN....SLN (incert class and name ) was intercepted in (enter name of system) and damaged and ultimatly destroyed while attacking merchant shipping. Per the information in SLN..(ship name)'s computers, they have been responsible for the destruction of (include list of names, system of registry, number of crew killed). The following list of SLN crew is A) deceased- attach names and serial numbers, B) presently in the custody of the (name system) of which attach names and serial numbers list if wounded and commended to X system for medical care.
Owners/shippers of said vessels should apply to Solarian League to recover damages from the loss of said ship and cargo as the SLN ship in question is was apparently attacking neutral shipping. (SLN ship's log and action reports appended- SLN orders to attack neutral shipping appended)

You see where I'm going with this. Yeah, there's a war on---started by the SL--- and now they are killing people and ships to claim they are DOING SOMETHING when all they are is acting like incompetent pirates.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by ldwechsler   » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:53 pm

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Posts: 1235
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 12:15 pm

Brigade XO wrote:So far we are not seeing any GA commerce raiding. Actualy we have the two steps (so far) of Lacoon and that just keeps the SL flagged ships out of Manticoran controlled space.

It is not in either Manticore nor Haven's interest to be doing active commerce raiding. On the other hand, the SLN is going to make a lot of enemies destroying or siezing othewise neutral shipping out in the Verge etc and especialy inside the SL.
Sure, SLN commerce raiders are going to cause problems, loss of life and all sorts of economic disruption (mostly to the SL and non-allined systems & private companies) but unless the SLN gets consistantly lucky or figures out something repeatable that lets them engage and destroy GA warships, things are going to get interesting.

Imagine that the GA is regularly engaging "commerce raiders" in the form of SLN warships. What to do....well tell them to surrender and then attempt to cripple them if they try to fight or run. Actually, not such a good idea, if they engage, go for the kill and sort out the survivors. Then......hopefully these engagements are near inhabited planets....deposit the SLN crews (with nothing but the clothing on their backs) with the local system goverment and a affidavit citing the circumstances of the engagement. Send a report "home" at next opportunity. So in the not too distant future the SLN will be getting all sorts of demands for compensation for supporting said SLN personal and arranging for them to be sent ....well, wherever the SL want them sent.

Meanwhile, the GA starts dropping lists and reports into the various news services at the same time they forward the information to the SLN....SLN (incert class and name ) was intercepted in (enter name of system) and damaged and ultimatly destroyed while attacking merchant shipping. Per the information in SLN..(ship name)'s computers, they have been responsible for the destruction of (include list of names, system of registry, number of crew killed). The following list of SLN crew is A) deceased- attach names and serial numbers, B) presently in the custody of the (name system) of which attach names and serial numbers list if wounded and commended to X system for medical care.
Owners/shippers of said vessels should apply to Solarian League to recover damages from the loss of said ship and cargo as the SLN ship in question is was apparently attacking neutral shipping. (SLN ship's log and action reports appended- SLN orders to attack neutral shipping appended)

You see where I'm going with this. Yeah, there's a war on---started by the SL--- and now they are killing people and ships to claim they are DOING SOMETHING when all they are is acting like incompetent pirates.


Commerce raiding can only work for a little while. Imagine things reverse here in OTL. How effective would British commerce raiding have been against Germany? AFter a point, there was no commerce.

The Sollies could send out raiders but what happens when the GA uses small groups as convoy escorts. One Hex C could easily take out a couple of Sollie cruisers.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by lyonheart   » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:25 am

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Posts: 4853
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:27 pm

Hi ldwechsler,

Good to read your posts too.

Nit: One Sag-C could probably kill at least 22-24 SLN/FF BC's, if not many more heavy and light cruisers, not just 2, given a warload of 1320 Mk-16's, not counting 40 pods [14@] tractored for another 10 or so BC's at least for 1880 total Mk-16's; though Tamaguchi thought Tremaine's "200" [23-24 pods=207-216 missiles] could destroy all 16 of his ships in a single volley, granted they were MDM's, but they are comparable though we don't have an exact ratio to figure.

We have textev that merchant raiding the SL is to follow Lacoon 2, but no details; but given the RMN being the RMN, I expect capturing the crew and commandeering the ship, not making them disappear in simple destruction, as the FF has done so often.

However given the strength of the GA, that part may have been put on at least hold for the reasons cited by Brigade XO and you etc, since the RMN is no longer alone and now has many more
more palatable options.

I'd expect some Solly freighters captains to booby trap their ships to prevent them being seized, though Brigade XO's excellent point of publishing all the ships the FF 'pirates' destroyed so the owners can sue the SL is brilliant, the GA might suggest the owners of the ships they seize also sue the SL, but I doubt that will work; though they should get the ship back after the war, so the sooner they help end it the better, "so what can you tell us about the SLN..." :D

I meant to make clear that the TG's mentioned above in my previous post were mainly for cleansing the various star systems of the SL, the SLN and any overt trans-stellar influence.

Indeed given a density of some ~1781 member systems spread across approximately 23.8 million cubic LY's means an average radius of 14.726 LY, or about 4 days apart traveling in the lower Eta bands; so 100 TG's ( from ~50 hyper termini) could visit 18 systems each in 11-12 weeks with an average of up to 16 hours spent in each system negotiating or remonstrating before the TG moves on, while a followup TG/F then provides more continuous protection etc, or an average of 25 hours per system if more time is needed to bring it to 13 weeks [or 24 hours each for 90 days].

Similarly, Cuthbert's quartet have demonstrated how easily and quickly the verge can be purged. ;)

60-100 similar sized TG's (possibly substituting Black Rose type old BC's with ~80 pods tractored) could visit a protectorate system every 7-8 days [or whatever the interval is] and be through at the same time, while larger TF's deal with serious SDF's and SLN bases and industrial nodes, just in time for Honor's little talk with Kingsford.

TIY is probably a SLN base as well as major construction node and missile manufacturing center [ie a target 4 times over], though I suspect it will take some time to nail down the fact that all the many Cataphracts can't all be coming from TIY or any and all of its manufacturing sites.

I'm also looking forward to see how RFC breaks up the core into pieces small enough not to threaten the SEM/GA or anyone else.

Definitely interesting times.

L


ldwechsler wrote:
Brigade XO wrote:So far we are not seeing any GA commerce raiding. Actualy we have the two steps (so far) of Lacoon and that just keeps the SL flagged ships out of Manticoran controlled space.

It is not in either Manticore nor Haven's interest to be doing active commerce raiding. On the other hand, the SLN is going to make a lot of enemies destroying or siezing othewise neutral shipping out in the Verge etc and especialy inside the SL.
Sure, SLN commerce raiders are going to cause problems, loss of life and all sorts of economic disruption (mostly to the SL and non-allined systems & private companies) but unless the SLN gets consistantly lucky or figures out something repeatable that lets them engage and destroy GA warships, things are going to get interesting.

Imagine that the GA is regularly engaging "commerce raiders" in the form of SLN warships. What to do....well tell them to surrender and then attempt to cripple them if they try to fight or run. Actually, not such a good idea, if they engage, go for the kill and sort out the survivors. Then......hopefully these engagements are near inhabited planets....deposit the SLN crews (with nothing but the clothing on their backs) with the local system goverment and a affidavit citing the circumstances of the engagement. Send a report "home" at next opportunity. So in the not too distant future the SLN will be getting all sorts of demands for compensation for supporting said SLN personal and arranging for them to be sent ....well, wherever the SL want them sent.

Meanwhile, the GA starts dropping lists and reports into the various news services at the same time they forward the information to the SLN....SLN (incert class and name ) was intercepted in (enter name of system) and damaged and ultimatly destroyed while attacking merchant shipping. Per the information in SLN..(ship name)'s computers, they have been responsible for the destruction of (include list of names, system of registry, number of crew killed). The following list of SLN crew is A) deceased- attach names and serial numbers, B) presently in the custody of the (name system) of which attach names and serial numbers list if wounded and commended to X system for medical care.
Owners/shippers of said vessels should apply to Solarian League to recover damages from the loss of said ship and cargo as the SLN ship in question is was apparently attacking neutral shipping. (SLN ship's log and action reports appended- SLN orders to attack neutral shipping appended)

You see where I'm going with this. Yeah, there's a war on---started by the SL--- and now they are killing people and ships to claim they are DOING SOMETHING when all they are is acting like incompetent pirates.


Commerce raiding can only work for a little while. Imagine things reverse here in OTL. How effective would British commerce raiding have been against Germany? AFter a point, there was no commerce.

The Sollies could send out raiders but what happens when the GA uses small groups as convoy escorts. One Hex C could easily take out a couple of Sollie cruisers.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
Top
Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by ldwechsler   » Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:41 pm

ldwechsler
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1235
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 12:15 pm

lyonheart wrote:Hi ldwechsler,

Good to read your posts too.

Nit: One Sag-C could probably kill at least 22-24 SLN/FF BC's, if not many more heavy and light cruisers, not just 2, given a warload of 1320 Mk-16's, not counting 40 pods [14@] tractored for another 10 or so BC's at least for 1880 total Mk-16's; though Tamaguchi thought Tremaine's "200" [23-24 pods=207-216 missiles] could destroy all 16 of his ships in a single volley, granted they were MDM's, but they are comparable though we don't have an exact ratio to figure.

We have textev that merchant raiding the SL is to follow Lacoon 2, but no details; but given the RMN being the RMN, I expect capturing the crew and commandeering the ship, not making them disappear in simple destruction, as the FF has done so often.

However given the strength of the GA, that part may have been put on at least hold for the reasons cited by Brigade XO and you etc, since the RMN is no longer alone and now has many more
more palatable options.

I'd expect some Solly freighters captains to booby trap their ships to prevent them being seized, though Brigade XO's excellent point of publishing all the ships the FF 'pirates' destroyed so the owners can sue the SL is brilliant, the GA might suggest the owners of the ships they seize also sue the SL, but I doubt that will work; though they should get the ship back after the war, so the sooner they help end it the better, "so what can you tell us about the SLN..." :D

I meant to make clear that the TG's mentioned above in my previous post were mainly for cleansing the various star systems of the SL, the SLN and any overt trans-stellar influence.

Indeed given a density of some ~1781 member systems spread across approximately 23.8 million cubic LY's means an average radius of 14.726 LY, or about 4 days apart traveling in the lower Eta bands; so 100 TG's ( from ~50 hyper termini) could visit 18 systems each in 11-12 weeks with an average of up to 16 hours spent in each system negotiating or remonstrating before the TG moves on, while a followup TG/F then provides more continuous protection etc, or an average of 25 hours per system if more time is needed to bring it to 13 weeks [or 24 hours each for 90 days].

Similarly, Cuthbert's quartet have demonstrated how easily and quickly the verge can be purged. ;)

60-100 similar sized TG's (possibly substituting Black Rose type old BC's with ~80 pods tractored) could visit a protectorate system every 7-8 days [or whatever the interval is] and be through at the same time, while larger TF's deal with serious SDF's and SLN bases and industrial nodes, just in time for Honor's little talk with Kingsford.

TIY is probably a SLN base as well as major construction node and missile manufacturing center [ie a target 4 times over], though I suspect it will take some time to nail down the fact that all the many Cataphracts can't all be coming from TIY or any and all of its manufacturing sites.

I'm also looking forward to see how RFC breaks up the core into pieces small enough not to threaten the SEM/GA or anyone else.

Definitely interesting times.

L


ldwechsler wrote:So far we are not seeing any GA commerce raiding. Actualy we have the two steps (so far) of Lacoon and that just keeps the SL flagged ships out of Manticoran controlled space.

It is not in either Manticore nor Haven's interest to be doing active commerce raiding. On the other hand, the SLN is going to make a lot of enemies destroying or siezing othewise neutral shipping out in the Verge etc and especialy inside the SL.
Sure, SLN commerce raiders are going to cause problems, loss of life and all sorts of economic disruption (mostly to the SL and non-allined systems & private companies) but unless the SLN gets consistantly lucky or figures out something repeatable that lets them engage and destroy GA warships, things are going to get interesting.

Imagine that the GA is regularly engaging "commerce raiders" in the form of SLN warships. What to do....well tell them to surrender and then attempt to cripple them if they try to fight or run. Actually, not such a good idea, if they engage, go for the kill and sort out the survivors. Then......hopefully these engagements are near inhabited planets....deposit the SLN crews (with nothing but the clothing on their backs) with the local system goverment and a affidavit citing the circumstances of the engagement. Send a report "home" at next opportunity. So in the not too distant future the SLN will be getting all sorts of demands for compensation for supporting said SLN personal and arranging for them to be sent ....well, wherever the SL want them sent.

Meanwhile, the GA starts dropping lists and reports into the various news services at the same time they forward the information to the SLN....SLN (incert class and name ) was intercepted in (enter name of system) and damaged and ultimatly destroyed while attacking merchant shipping. Per the information in SLN..(ship name)'s computers, they have been responsible for the destruction of (include list of names, system of registry, number of crew killed). The following list of SLN crew is A) deceased- attach names and serial numbers, B) presently in the custody of the (name system) of which attach names and serial numbers list if wounded and commended to X system for medical care.
Owners/shippers of said vessels should apply to Solarian League to recover damages from the loss of said ship and cargo as the SLN ship in question is was apparently attacking neutral shipping. (SLN ship's log and action reports appended- SLN orders to attack neutral shipping appended)

You see where I'm going with this. Yeah, there's a war on---started by the SL--- and now they are killing people and ships to claim they are DOING SOMETHING when all they are is acting like incompetent pirates.


Commerce raiding can only work for a little while. Imagine things reverse here in OTL. How effective would British commerce raiding have been against Germany? AFter a point, there was no commerce.

The Sollies could send out raiders but what happens when the GA uses small groups as convoy escorts. One Hex C could easily take out a couple of Sollie cruisers.
[/quote]

I was understating the power of the Mantie ships.

Also, I doubt there will be sabotage by Sollie captains. Note that the ships are privately owned. If taken, they might be given back. If destroyed, they are gone forever. Also, sometimes
crews are left on board. I doubt there will be suicides.

And the GA could play really clever. Announce that once the war is over, captured ships could be returned to their owners if their planets were not part of the League any more. That would really put pressure on the League.

Also, keep in mind that there is a shortage of shipping in the League. A huge percentage was carried by Mantie ships. Taking a lot of ships could really wreak havoc. And I'd bet Beowulf would as well as the Manties would know the most profitable trade routes where most of the traffic would be.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by lyonheart   » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:52 pm

lyonheart
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Posts: 4853
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:27 pm

Hi ldwechsler,

We should probably shorten this, so feel free. :)

Offering to return the privately owned freighters if their home system quits the SL is a great idea, though the numbers of freighters and trans-stellars would have to have huge influence on the system government in question.

Such merchant raiding team's or TG's might include a marine transport with assault shuttles and plenty of unemployed merchant crews to man all the freighters they capture as well as brigs for any FF pirates they catch [I'd at least keep the officers for further debriefing] maybe with a pair or two of LAC's tractored to the hull to reduce the number of hyper warships required, or Beowulf and Haven might develop the small CLAC with ~1-2 dozen LAC's but maybe only 6-8; not a convoy escort though it might do that occasionally, that includes marine assault shuttles and a company or two of marines and other billets for merchant crewmen.

It could prove very useful and might be based on the Charles Ward hull type, although modified marine assault transports would be more likely.

OTOH, given how short the war will last, simply using fast marine assault transports will probably be the way they go.

Thanks for the ideas,

L


ldwechsler wrote:
lyonheart wrote:Hi ldwechsler,

Good to read your posts too.

Nit: One Sag-C could probably kill at least 22-24 SLN/FF BC's, if not many more heavy and light cruisers, not just 2, given a warload of 1320 Mk-16's, not counting 40 pods [14@] tractored for another 10 or so BC's at least for 1880 total Mk-16's; though Tamaguchi thought Tremaine's "200" [23-24 pods=207-216 missiles] could destroy all 16 of his ships in a single volley, granted they were MDM's, but they are comparable though we don't have an exact ratio to figure.

We have textev that merchant raiding the SL is to follow Lacoon 2, but no details; but given the RMN being the RMN, I expect capturing the crew and commandeering the ship, not making them disappear in simple destruction, as the FF has done so often.

However given the strength of the GA, that part may have been put on at least hold for the reasons cited by Brigade XO and you etc, since the RMN is no longer alone and now has many more
more palatable options.

I'd expect some Solly freighters captains to booby trap their ships to prevent them being seized, though Brigade XO's excellent point of publishing all the ships the FF 'pirates' destroyed so the owners can sue the SL is brilliant, the GA might suggest the owners of the ships they seize also sue the SL, but I doubt that will work; though they should get the ship back after the war, so the sooner they help end it the better, "so what can you tell us about the SLN..." :D

I meant to make clear that the TG's mentioned above in my previous post were mainly for cleansing the various star systems of the SL, the SLN and any overt trans-stellar influence.

Indeed given a density of some ~1781 member systems spread across approximately 23.8 million cubic LY's means an average radius of 14.726 LY, or about 4 days apart traveling in the lower Eta bands; so 100 TG's ( from ~50 hyper termini) could visit 18 systems each in 11-12 weeks with an average of up to 16 hours spent in each system negotiating or remonstrating before the TG moves on, while a followup TG/F then provides more continuous protection etc, or an average of 25 hours per system if more time is needed to bring it to 13 weeks [or 24 hours each for 90 days].

Similarly, Cuthbert's quartet have demonstrated how easily and quickly the verge can be purged. ;)

60-100 similar sized TG's (possibly substituting Black Rose type old BC's with ~80 pods tractored) could visit a protectorate system every 7-8 days [or whatever the interval is] and be through at the same time, while larger TF's deal with serious SDF's and SLN bases and industrial nodes, just in time for Honor's little talk with Kingsford.

TIY is probably a SLN base as well as major construction node and missile manufacturing center [ie a target 4 times over], though I suspect it will take some time to nail down the fact that all the many Cataphracts can't all be coming from TIY or any and all of its manufacturing sites.

I'm also looking forward to see how RFC breaks up the core into pieces small enough not to threaten the SEM/GA or anyone else.

Definitely interesting times.

L


quote="ldwechsler"So far we are not seeing any GA commerce raiding. Actualy we have the two steps (so far) of Lacoon and that just keeps the SL flagged ships out of Manticoran controlled space.

It is not in either Manticore nor Haven's interest to be doing active commerce raiding. On the other hand, the SLN is going to make a lot of enemies destroying or siezing othewise neutral shipping out in the Verge etc and especialy inside the SL.
Sure, SLN commerce raiders are going to cause problems, loss of life and all sorts of economic disruption (mostly to the SL and non-allined systems & private companies) but unless the SLN gets consistantly lucky or figures out something repeatable that lets them engage and destroy GA warships, things are going to get interesting.

Imagine that the GA is regularly engaging "commerce raiders" in the form of SLN warships. What to do....well tell them to surrender and then attempt to cripple them if they try to fight or run. Actually, not such a good idea, if they engage, go for the kill and sort out the survivors. Then......hopefully these engagements are near inhabited planets....deposit the SLN crews (with nothing but the clothing on their backs) with the local system goverment and a affidavit citing the circumstances of the engagement. Send a report "home" at next opportunity. So in the not too distant future the SLN will be getting all sorts of demands for compensation for supporting said SLN personal and arranging for them to be sent ....well, wherever the SL want them sent.

Meanwhile, the GA starts dropping lists and reports into the various news services at the same time they forward the information to the SLN....SLN (incert class and name ) was intercepted in (enter name of system) and damaged and ultimatly destroyed while attacking merchant shipping. Per the information in SLN..(ship name)'s computers, they have been responsible for the destruction of (include list of names, system of registry, number of crew killed). The following list of SLN crew is A) deceased- attach names and serial numbers, B) presently in the custody of the (name system) of which attach names and serial numbers list if wounded and commended to X system for medical care.
Owners/shippers of said vessels should apply to Solarian League to recover damages from the loss of said ship and cargo as the SLN ship in question is was apparently attacking neutral shipping. (SLN ship's log and action reports appended- SLN orders to attack neutral shipping appended)

You see where I'm going with this. Yeah, there's a war on---started by the SL--- and now they are killing people and ships to claim they are DOING SOMETHING when all they are is acting like incompetent pirates.quote

Commerce raiding can only work for a little while. Imagine things reverse here in OTL. How effective would British commerce raiding have been against Germany? AFter a point, there was no commerce.

The Sollies could send out raiders but what happens when the GA uses small groups as convoy escorts. One Hex C could easily take out a couple of Sollie cruisers.


I was understating the power of the Mantie ships.

Also, I doubt there will be sabotage by Sollie captains. Note that the ships are privately owned. If taken, they might be given back. If destroyed, they are gone forever. Also, sometimes
crews are left on board. I doubt there will be suicides.

And the GA could play really clever. Announce that once the war is over, captured ships could be returned to their owners if their planets were not part of the League any more. That would really put pressure on the League.

Also, keep in mind that there is a shortage of shipping in the League. A huge percentage was carried by Mantie ships. Taking a lot of ships could really wreak havoc. And I'd bet Beowulf would as well as the Manties would know the most profitable trade routes where most of the traffic would be.[/quote]
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by ldwechsler   » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:46 pm

ldwechsler
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1235
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 12:15 pm

[quote="lyonheart"]Hi ldwechsler,

We should probably shorten this, so feel free. :)

Offering to return the privately owned freighters if their home system quits the SL is a great idea, though the numbers of freighters and trans-stellars would have to have huge influence on the system government in question.

Such merchant raiding team's or TG's might include a marine transport with assault shuttles and plenty of unemployed merchant crews to man all the freighters they capture as well as brigs for any FF pirates they catch [I'd at least keep the officers for further debriefing] maybe with a pair or two of LAC's tractored to the hull to reduce the number of hyper warships required, or Beowulf and Haven might develop the small CLAC with ~1-2 dozen LAC's but maybe only 6-8; not a convoy escort though it might do that occasionally, that includes marine assault shuttles and a company or two of marines and other billets for merchant crewmen.

It could prove very useful and might be based on the Charles Ward hull type, although modified marine assault transports would be more likely.

OTOH, given how short the war will last, simply using fast marine assault transports will probably be the way they go.

Thanks for the ideas,

L


Even more tempting, allow for return of a all ships (with some penalties) if the war is ended reasonably soon and the guilty punished.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by kzt   » Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:27 pm

kzt
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 11170
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

ldwechsler wrote:OTOH, given how short the war will last, simply using fast marine assault transports will probably be the way they go.

You will be home before the leaves fall from the trees...
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by cthia   » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:48 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14945
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

UH wrote:The one thing we know for certain about what happened to Eleventh Fleet is that it got the holy living hell kicked out of it. I have no intention of allowing that to happen to my task force. Is that understood?”


That's the only thing Admiral Capriotti knows, for certain? SLN intel isn't the main problem. Lame brained membranes is the problem. Well, the snippet answers one of my previous questions about where on the IQ line the next CO of SLN notoriety will be placed.

< Byng < Crandall < Filareta

Certainly < Filareta. Are there no Salamander counterparts in the SLN? No Theismans, no White Havens, no Matthews, no Henkes, no Trumans, no Forakers?

Oh my! They've only got Youngs, Santinos and Byngs and things!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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