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A Question about Sandra Crandalls conduct in Meyers

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Re: A Question about Sandra Crandalls conduct in Meyers
Post by jtg452   » Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:28 pm

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quite possibly a cat wrote:Byng was terrible! I wanted to smack him for being so stupid. He could have gotten such perfect revenge against the Manties, and he blew it!

1) He should have ordered all non-SLN ships to come to a nice orbit, declare themselves and power-down as soon as possible. Any other assets they have in space need to be declared and powered down as well. If the manties cooperate you can just skip to "4", since refusal to cooperate proves guilt.

2) Assuming you get compliance, you can then start the investigation. First you need to secure any armed ships. This means the crews will have to get out, but you do have some spare space in the brig. You'll also obviously need full control and access to every ship. The civilian ships should be cleared pretty quickly because they don't randomly carry nukes or stealth tech. That leaves the Mantie military ships.

3) The investigation would find nothing amiss with any ship at all, except one of the probes that the Manties super stealthy probes they supposedly launched is missing. Not there. So weird. Didn't find anything at the spot they declared a drone was at. Of course, after searching the reports you find an example of Manties using nuke armed stealth drones as a weapon. It fits their MO. They can't account for the drone. And this is the star nation that stiffed them. You have means, motive, opportunity, them lying, and it matches tech only they have.

4) Finally you finish up by interrogating a Manty captain who has been steeped in the Saganami tradition. Obviously there will be assorted people to observe so you don't mistreat the Manty captain. After you point out that the Manties are pirates since there wasn't a declared war, and unless there is evidence that the rest of the crew is innocent you'll execute them all, he'll confess to the whole thing and say his crew had nothing to do with it.

At this point you seize the ship from the captain that confessed and now have all the fancy Manty tech.

Either way, you have proof the Manties did it, and you have a confession. Case closed. Manties just murdered over forty thousand civilians as far as anyone else knows.

As a free bonus, TIY will pay a ton for your prize ship. And your intelligence service will probably be pretty happy about getting to examine the probe you didn't find.


No captain of a warship- of ANY nation- worthy of holding that position is going to roll over and show his belly like that.

You don't strike your colors (or, in the Honorverse, your wedge) and submit to being boarded and 'inspected' by a foreign navy in a neutral port or anywhere else. Just having the temerity to make such a demand is a good way to end up getting shot at on general principle.

The only difference in the outcome would have been the Manty destroyers' wedges would have been building up when Byng fired instead of being completely down and their backstopping ship would have gotten a recording of a Solly admiral making such outrageous demands.

EDIT

Come to think of it, the Manties are good enough to have probably gotten off a few shots, too, before they were destroyed.
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Re: A Question about Sandra Crandalls conduct in Meyers
Post by pnakasone   » Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:41 pm

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As it has been stated SN tactics are hit nail that sticks out with hammer. If hammer breaks get bigger hammer. Repeat until nail no longer stick out. Plan dos not take into account the possibility of running out of hammers or the nail being able to fight back effectively.
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Re: A Question about Sandra Crandalls conduct in Meyers
Post by Fireflair   » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:32 pm

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Byng, as is well documented, was a ignorant tool. A blunt instrument who was too stupid and convinced of his own arrogant superiority to do anything but what he did. The MAlign didn't have to try at all with him. They barely had to aim him to get what they wanted, he was so ignorant and prejudiced it couldn't have gone any other way.

Crandall was marginally better. More intelligent, but just as arrogant and bigoted. The Alignment did need to do some arranging to get her set up but her SLN over-confidence was fed right into that meat grinder with the expected results. Of course by the time she arrived in system they were ready for her and just egged her on. Any vestige of intelligence, restraint and ability to see beyond the obvious was quickly lost.

Fillaretta was not Byng or Crandall, he did have a functional brain. And despite plenty of the SLN institutional arrogance he wasn't entirely ignorant or stupid. He had his suspicions about both Crandall and Byng's actions. Who directed them, for what reasons and how. He also wasn't entirely blind to RMN tech advantage. Yes, he fully expected to trash Manticore but he was also willing to make a run for it if things went sideways. And to stand down if he was totally screwed. He would have done so if he hadn't gotten blown up at the last.

I think it would have been an interesting scene to see what happened if he and his command crew hadn't been blown up. That could have been an entertaining debriefing.
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Re: A Question about Sandra Crandalls conduct in Meyers
Post by phillies   » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:41 pm

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quite possibly a cat wrote:Byng was terrible! I wanted to smack him for being so stupid. He could have gotten such perfect revenge against the Manties, and he blew it!

1) He should have ordered all non-SLN ships to come to a nice orbit, declare themselves and power-down as soon as possible. Any other assets they have in space need to be declared and powered down as well. If the manties cooperate you can just skip to "4", since refusal to cooperate proves guilt.

2) Assuming you get compliance, you can then start the investigation. First you need to secure any armed ships. This means the crews will have to get out, but you do have some spare space in the brig. You'll also obviously need full control and access to every ship. The civilian ships should be cleared pretty quickly because they don't randomly carry nukes or stealth tech. That leaves the Mantie military ships.

3) The investigation would find nothing amiss with any ship at all, except one of the probes that the Manties super stealthy probes they supposedly launched is missing. Not there. So weird. Didn't find anything at the spot they declared a drone was at. Of course, after searching the reports you find an example of Manties using nuke armed stealth drones as a weapon. It fits their MO. They can't account for the drone. And this is the star nation that stiffed them. You have means, motive, opportunity, them lying, and it matches tech only they have.

4) Finally you finish up by interrogating a Manty captain who has been steeped in the Saganami tradition. Obviously there will be assorted people to observe so you don't mistreat the Manty captain. After you point out that the Manties are pirates since there wasn't a declared war, and unless there is evidence that the rest of the crew is innocent you'll execute them all, he'll confess to the whole thing and say his crew had nothing to do with it.

At this point you seize the ship from the captain that confessed and now have all the fancy Manty tech.

Either way, you have proof the Manties did it, and you have a confession. Case closed. Manties just murdered over forty thousand civilians as far as anyone else knows.

As a free bonus, TIY will pay a ton for your prize ship. And your intelligence service will probably be pretty happy about getting to examine the probe you didn't find.


The Manticore response is to reject the SLN demands, power up, and perhaps try to move into planetary shadow via impeller. I am not clear as to whether they could have shot back if Byng had opened fire.

Byng on this point was not stupid. He had, however, read the columns here "The Solarian League Navy is Invincible" explaining that Manticorians use boarding torpedoes as seen in Starcrash.
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Re: A Question about Sandra Crandalls conduct in Meyers
Post by Daryl   » Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:18 am

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Don't forget that RFC is a Naval Historian, and his books take their cues from the interesting period between HMS Victory and Jutland and beyond.
I'm not totally sure about the RN's Admirals but know that the British Army's Generals were described as "Donkeys leading Lions". Family pedigree and connections were much more important than competence, so it is reasonable to assume that this applied to many in the RN as well. The RN just knew that they had the best ship technology, and this proved to be a problem at Jutland.
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Re: A Question about Sandra Crandalls conduct in Meyers
Post by cthia   » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:03 am

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Byng wasn't just an idiot, he was riddled with intense hatred for all things Manticoran. You almost wanted to ask him 'What the hell did the Manties ever do to you?'

Sandra Crandall, the poor girl, was suffering from the many pinecones shoved up her bum. You would have wanted to just 'get on with it' or 'let's be about it' too. Crandall wasn't just angry at the Manties, she was angry at the entire phucking universe.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: A Question about Sandra Crandalls conduct in Meyers
Post by ldwechsler   » Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:38 am

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Daryl wrote:Don't forget that RFC is a Naval Historian, and his books take their cues from the interesting period between HMS Victory and Jutland and beyond.
I'm not totally sure about the RN's Admirals but know that the British Army's Generals were described as "Donkeys leading Lions". Family pedigree and connections were much more important than competence, so it is reasonable to assume that this applied to many in the RN as well. The RN just knew that they had the best ship technology, and this proved to be a problem at Jutland.



Actually, the Manticore captains and admirals were really good. They had to be good. They were facing Haven for a generation which was far larger and could produce a real lot of ships.

Great tech goes only so far. And we've seen a whole group of top people besides Honor: Alistair, Alice Truman, Scotty Tremaine, Terekhov, Henke, Oversteegan. For a while, RFC noted that they were winning because the Haven commanders were so weak. But they did win. And the Sollies had the idiots.

Actually it was the Sollies who were like the Brits between the wars. Politics takes over when a country's existence is no at stake. Even during the Napoleonic Wars, the Brits depended on top commanders like Nelson only until it was clear that the French navy was beaten. Then politics took over. And after the war, the Brits really faced no one at sea, no one threatening at all, until World War I.

Manticore is better in a lot of way because it was threatened. And, yes, politics played a role, sometimes a nasty one, think Pavel Young and his defenders, but we have seen far more really good leaders.

On the other hand, Byng and Crandall were picked by MAlign because they were political beings who were naval idiots. Filatera was difference but was also chosen by MAlign.

There are some good naval commanders for the SLN but it becomes a matter of chance if they face the Grand Alliance. Plus the huge tech advantage does come in to play.
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Re: A Question about Sandra Crandalls conduct in Meyers
Post by munroburton   » Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:12 am

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cthia wrote:Byng wasn't just an idiot, he was riddled with intense hatred for all things Manticoran. You almost wanted to ask him 'What the hell did the Manties ever do to you?'

Sandra Crandall, the poor girl, was suffering from the many pinecones shoved up her bum. You would have wanted to just 'get on with it' or 'let's be about it' too. Crandall wasn't just angry at the Manties, she was angry at the entire phucking universe.


Decades earlier in his career, when he was a Captain, Byng was harassing merchant shipping. He impounded Manticoran merchantmen and their crews without trial on trumped-up charges of smuggling.

Then the Manticoran Foreign Office had the temerity to protest, which resulted in Byng being censured and knocked down the SLN's promotion lists by a few years.
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Re: A Question about Sandra Crandalls conduct in Meyers
Post by Daryl   » Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:15 pm

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It was the Sollies I was comparing the aristocratic RN to not the Manties.
You don't need a formal aristocracy to get a priveliged class.

ldwechsler wrote:
Daryl wrote:Don't forget that RFC is a Naval Historian, and his books take their cues from the interesting period between HMS Victory and Jutland and beyond.
I'm not totally sure about the RN's Admirals but know that the British Army's Generals were described as "Donkeys leading Lions". Family pedigree and connections were much more important than competence, so it is reasonable to assume that this applied to many in the RN as well. The RN just knew that they had the best ship technology, and this proved to be a problem at Jutland.



Actually, the Manticore captains and admirals were really good. They had to be good. They were facing Haven for a generation which was far larger and could produce a real lot of ships.

Great tech goes only so far. And we've seen a whole group of top people besides Honor: Alistair, Alice Truman, Scotty Tremaine, Terekhov, Henke, Oversteegan. For a while, RFC noted that they were winning because the Haven commanders were so weak. But they did win. And the Sollies had the idiots.

Actually it was the Sollies who were like the Brits between the wars. Politics takes over when a country's existence is no at stake. Even during the Napoleonic Wars, the Brits depended on top commanders like Nelson only until it was clear that the French navy was beaten. Then politics took over. And after the war, the Brits really faced no one at sea, no one threatening at all, until World War I.

Manticore is better in a lot of way because it was threatened. And, yes, politics played a role, sometimes a nasty one, think Pavel Young and his defenders, but we have seen far more really good leaders.

On the other hand, Byng and Crandall were picked by MAlign because they were political beings who were naval idiots. Filatera was difference but was also chosen by MAlign.

There are some good naval commanders for the SLN but it becomes a matter of chance if they face the Grand Alliance. Plus the huge tech advantage does come in to play.
Top
Re: A Question about Sandra Crandalls conduct in Meyers
Post by cthia   » Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:47 pm

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munroburton wrote:
cthia wrote:Byng wasn't just an idiot, he was riddled with intense hatred for all things Manticoran. You almost wanted to ask him 'What the hell did the Manties ever do to you?'

Sandra Crandall, the poor girl, was suffering from the many pinecones shoved up her bum. You would have wanted to just 'get on with it' or 'let's be about it' too. Crandall wasn't just angry at the Manties, she was angry at the entire phucking universe.


Decades earlier in his career, when he was a Captain, Byng was harassing merchant shipping. He impounded Manticoran merchantmen and their crews without trial on trumped-up charges of smuggling.

Then the Manticoran Foreign Office had the temerity to protest, which resulted in Byng being censured and knocked down the SLN's promotion lists by a few years.


A Ripple In Time.


Thanks for the info.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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