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The Charles Ward

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Re: The Charles Ward
Post by cthia   » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:52 pm

cthia
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Brigade XO wrote:
saber964 wrote:The Charles Ward is a armed auxiliary much like auxiliaries during WWII were armed. All of the U.S. Navy auxiliaries were armed during WWII they carried anywhere from 1 to 6 5 or 4 in guns, 1 to 4 3 in gun and various numbers of light AA guns like 30 and 50 cal 20 mm and 28 mm. All of the guns were removed in the fifties.


True. On the other hand, The Charles Ward is is vastly better armed in comparison to even one of the better German merchant commerce raiders in the early days of WW II. Given her described weapons, she is (though she shouldn't) certainly capable of going after a DD. She certainly could open any shooting way beyond the engagemenet range of a SLN BC (pesky MDM missles in pods if not in tubes--are her tubes loading LERMs?) and her peni-aids are better. The trick of dropping pods (with MDMs) while running away would open the initial engagement range further even if she had to accept much inferior final targeting solutions and let the pod launched wepons use their on-board systems for the final attack.

Actualy, a variation in cargo configuration on a sister of the Ward could make a formidable very long duration/range commerce raider. Swap out the repair module or reduce it's repair capabilty for more supplies and this "freighter" becomes a real nightmare as far as going after convoys (lightly escorted) or interdictding trade routes. Depending on your view or requirements, there might be space on one of these ships to start out with enough extra personel to be able to put prize crews about a couple of ships and (having dropped the crews in their own lifeboats) send them back to Manticore. Using SEM Merchant Marine crews from some of those idled freighters back home would work, you don't need full crews and you don't (if you drop the original freighter crews) need guards. Just enough (like Hexapuma did "borrowing" the freighter at Montana) to safely operate the ship which is going to be running in hyperspace and probably just enough off any direct line route combination to stay out of accidental encounters with anybody.
Theemile wrote:The Ward's missile armament was never mentioned, but as of 1920, I don't see Manticore building a ship what doesn't have Mk36 (LERM), Mk 15 (ERM), Mk 16 (DDM), or Mk 23 (MDM)launchers. and anything built after 1922 won't have Mk-15s.


For convenience, she outta be able to shoot whatever she's carrying. And she should be carrying the kitchen sink.

Sharing genetics with a freighter, isn't she big enough to be equipped with Keyhole II?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Charles Ward
Post by Theemile   » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:26 pm

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cthia wrote:
For convenience, she outta be able to shoot whatever she's carrying. And she should be carrying the kitchen sink.

Sharing genetics with a freighter, isn't she big enough to be equipped with Keyhole II?


Yeah.. but Keyholes IIs are massive. 120Ktons each, ~80 tons of extra computers on top of the normal tactical systems, plus the mass of the broadside mating hardware and transmission equipment. that's somewhere between 325 and 350 Ktons for the installation - 1/10 of the Ward's total mass, where 1/2 of the total mass is cargo/industrial modules. I don't see something of that size (and expense) on an auxiliary which isn't supposed to get into a fight when it can avoid it.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: The Charles Ward
Post by Eagleeye   » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:58 pm

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Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:
For convenience, she outta be able to shoot whatever she's carrying. And she should be carrying the kitchen sink.

Sharing genetics with a freighter, isn't she big enough to be equipped with Keyhole II?


Yeah.. but Keyholes IIs are massive. 120Ktons each, ~80 tons of extra computers on top of the normal tactical systems, plus the mass of the broadside mating hardware and transmission equipment. that's somewhere between 325 and 350 Ktons for the installation - 1/10 of the Ward's total mass, where 1/2 of the total mass is cargo/industrial modules. I don't see something of that size (and expense) on an auxiliary which isn't supposed to get into a fight when it can avoid it.


On the other hand - Keyhole-I platforms with, if memory serves, something around 25 ktons each could be part of the package for a FSV. After all, the main function for a KH-I is to help the missile defense - and because FSVs like Charles Ward are essentially freighters on steroids they can use any additional missile defense they can get ;)
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Re: The Charles Ward
Post by cthia   » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:43 pm

cthia
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Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:
For convenience, she outta be able to shoot whatever she's carrying. And she should be carrying the kitchen sink.

Sharing genetics with a freighter, isn't she big enough to be equipped with Keyhole II?


Yeah.. but Keyholes IIs are massive. 120Ktons each, ~80 tons of extra computers on top of the normal tactical systems, plus the mass of the broadside mating hardware and transmission equipment. that's somewhere between 325 and 350 Ktons for the installation - 1/10 of the Ward's total mass, where 1/2 of the total mass is cargo/industrial modules. I don't see something of that size (and expense) on an auxiliary which isn't supposed to get into a fight when it can avoid it.
Eagleeye wrote:On the other hand - Keyhole-I platforms with, if memory serves, something around 25 ktons each could be part of the package for a FSV. After all, the main function for a KH-I is to help the missile defense - and because FSVs like Charles Ward are essentially freighters on steroids they can use any additional missile defense they can get ;)


Now that's a nice thought Eagleeye. The CW can use as much defensive fire as possible. And KH-1 allows a thickened CM fire at extended ranges via multiple launches. The CW should at least be carrying them in triplicate. (LOL) At any rate, hasn't KH-1s been standard equipment on all ships since their development?

But whoa on that displacement of KH-II! 120K tons? The drunken wiki has taken me for a ride again. Apparently the SLN consults the same wiki as I do -- which lists the displacement for a Keyhole II platform at 20K tons, ~ that of KH-1. It is obvious the specs were mixed...

wiki wrote:Keyhole II platforms were later developed, adding Faster-than-light communication capability instead of light speed transmissions, allowing them even faster response times (due to the decrease in communication lag). They were also able to be used as FTL links to the Apollo anti-ship missile control systems, even when a ship had rolled wedge. Keyhole II platforms massed around 20,000 tons. (HH11)


Does each ship need a Keyhole II or can one platform service one or more KH-II equipped ships? In the event that they lose their platforms.

Also, are they deployed the same way as the KH-1 platforms, trailing along by tractors receiving beamed power?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Charles Ward
Post by Theemile   » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:01 pm

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Eagleeye wrote:
Theemile wrote:
Yeah.. but Keyholes IIs are massive. 120Ktons each, ~80 tons of extra computers on top of the normal tactical systems, plus the mass of the broadside mating hardware and transmission equipment. that's somewhere between 325 and 350 Ktons for the installation - 1/10 of the Ward's total mass, where 1/2 of the total mass is cargo/industrial modules. I don't see something of that size (and expense) on an auxiliary which isn't supposed to get into a fight when it can avoid it.


On the other hand - Keyhole-I platforms with, if memory serves, something around 25 ktons each could be part of the package for a FSV. After all, the main function for a KH-I is to help the missile defense - and because FSVs like Charles Ward are essentially freighters on steroids they can use any additional missile defense they can get ;)


Actually, the original "firecontrol only" experimental Keyhole Massed 20 ktons, the kh1 drones with defenses(as deployed) Massed between 50 and 60 ktons each. Throw in the shipborne parts, and we're talking about 150 ktons.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: The Charles Ward
Post by Eagleeye   » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:06 pm

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cthia wrote:
Now that's a nice thought Eagleeye. The CW can use as much defensive fire as possible. And KH-1 allows a thickened CM fire at extended ranges via multiple launches. The CW should at least be carrying them in triplicate. (LOL) [1] At any rate, hasn't KH-1s been standard equipment on all ships since their development?

[...]

[2] Does each ship need a Keyhole II or can one platform service one or more ships?

[3] Also, are they deployed the same way as the KH-1 platforms, trailing along by tractors receiving beamed power?


[1] Nope. KH-I are available only for BCs and Ships of the Wall; CAs and anything else are simply to small to be able to provide the nesessary space.

[2] and [3] I'm under the impression that each ship of the wall has its own KH-2 platforms, that each platform serves the ship that has deployed it and that these platforms are able to do both: getting power from the ship which deployed them and operate on its own powersource. But maybe I mix that with Mycroft - after all, it derives from Apollo and Moriarty, both.

(square brackets in the quote of cthia are added by me - sorry for any inconveniance)
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Re: The Charles Ward
Post by cthia   » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:34 pm

cthia
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Eagleeye wrote:
cthia wrote:
Now that's a nice thought Eagleeye. The CW can use as much defensive fire as possible. And KH-1 allows a thickened CM fire at extended ranges via multiple launches. The CW should at least be carrying them in triplicate. (LOL) [1] At any rate, hasn't KH-1s been standard equipment on all ships since their development?

[...]

[2] Does each ship need a Keyhole II or can one platform service one or more ships?

[3] Also, are they deployed the same way as the KH-1 platforms, trailing along by tractors receiving beamed power?


[1] Nope. KH-I are available only for BCs and Ships of the Wall; CAs and anything else are simply to small to be able to provide the nesessary space.

[2] and [3] I'm under the impression that each ship of the wall has its own KH-2 platforms, that each platform serves the ship that has deployed it and that these platforms are able to do both: getting power from the ship which deployed them and operate on its own powersource. But maybe I mix that with Mycroft - after all, it derives from Apollo and Moriarty, both.

(square brackets in the quote of cthia are added by me - sorry for any inconveniance)


Thanks Eagleeye.

In the same vein as handing off missiles, I don't see why KH-II platforms cannot be shared (if ships are close enough), in the event that a ship has exhausted its supply. I remember the Old Lady coming quite close to doing just that on at least one occasion...

"We've lost another platform mam."

Albeit, I'm not sure if that was a KH-1 or II in that instance. At any rate, why can't KH-II platforms be shared?

For that matter, KH-1s as well. In the event that things have gone into the crapper, all ships are brought in close to protect the Old Lady and the objective has now become simply to get the Old Lady home. Of course, even with the formation packed in like sardines, I don't think the range of KH-1 control is great enough to parcel it out. Yet I do recall the notion of mutual defensive fire.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Charles Ward
Post by Theemile   » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:55 pm

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cthia wrote:
Thanks Eagleeye.

In the same vein as handing off missiles, I don't see why KH-II platforms cannot be shared (if ships are close enough), in the event that a ship has exhausted its supply. I remember the Old Lady coming quite close to doing just that on at least one occasion...

"We've lost another platform mam."

Albeit, I'm not sure if that was a KH-1 or II in that instance. At any rate, why can't KH-II platforms be shared?

For that matter, KH-1s as well. In the event that things have gone into the crapper, all ships are brought in close to protect the Old Lady and the objective has now become simply to get the Old Lady home. Of course, even with the formation packed in like sardines, I don't think the range of KH-1 control is great enough to parcel it out. Yet I do recall the notion of mutual defensive fire.


In a formation, The Apollo firecontrol can be passed back and forth between different ships to avoid the firecontrol being centralized. But there is a difference between in a formation and 1/2 an AU away.

[url]http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/entry/Harrington/165/1
[/url]

For anyone not good with the math, 75,000,000 KM, or about the range of an MDM without cruise stages, is ~1/2 an AU(Astronautical Unit), or 1/2 the distance between the Earth and the Sun. At 150,000,000 km, we're discussing a full AU, or roughly the entire distance between the Earth and the sun. We're discussing shooting missiles from one planet to another here (and skipping some in between).
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: The Charles Ward
Post by cthia   » Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:41 pm

cthia
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Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:
Thanks Eagleeye.

In the same vein as handing off missiles, I don't see why KH-II platforms cannot be shared (if ships are close enough), in the event that a ship has exhausted its supply. I remember the Old Lady coming quite close to doing just that on at least one occasion...

"We've lost another platform mam."

Albeit, I'm not sure if that was a KH-1 or II in that instance. At any rate, why can't KH-II platforms be shared?

For that matter, KH-1s as well. In the event that things have gone into the crapper, all ships are brought in close to protect the Old Lady and the objective has now become simply to get the Old Lady home. Of course, even with the formation packed in like sardines, I don't think the range of KH-1 control is great enough to parcel it out. Yet I do recall the notion of mutual defensive fire.


In a formation, The Apollo firecontrol can be passed back and forth between different ships to avoid the firecontrol being centralized. But there is a difference between in a formation and 1/2 an AU away.

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/entry/Harrington/165/1

For anyone not good with the math, 75,000,000 KM, or about the range of an MDM without cruise stages, is ~1/2 an AU(Astronautical Unit), or 1/2 the distance between the Earth and the Sun. At 150,000,000 km, we're discussing a full AU, or roughly the entire distance between the Earth and the sun. We're discussing shooting missiles from one planet to another here (and skipping some in between).
Fixed your link. Thanks for it, btw.

The distances involved is the reason why FTL is so critical.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Charles Ward
Post by cthia   » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:07 pm

cthia
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An aside:

BTW, is there anyone in the forum who hasn't stood outside on a very cold morning before sunrise and recorded the elapsed time between the moment you saw the sunrise and the moment you began to feel its warmth?

I conducted an experiment in a seventh grade class doing exactly that, removing everyone's watches. The teacher was impressed. I was happy, because she was a real looker. I find myself reproducing the experiment whenever I have the chance, just to make sure the sun hasn't moved.

8 min 20 seconds should be the results. Try closing your eyes. It's more effective.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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