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The Charles Ward

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Re: The Charles Ward
Post by Theemile   » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:47 pm

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cthia wrote:
http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/entry/Harrington/165/1

For anyone not good with the math, 75,000,000 KM, or about the range of an MDM without cruise stages, is ~1/2 an AU(Astronautical Unit), or 1/2 the distance between the Earth and the Sun. At 150,000,000 km, we're discussing a full AU, or roughly the entire distance between the Earth and the sun. We're discussing shooting missiles from one planet to another here (and skipping some in between).
Fixed your link. Thanks for it, btw.

The distances involved is the reason why FTL is so critical.[/quote]

Thank I tried to edit that 3 times and it wouldn't take- I finally threw up my hands!
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: The Charles Ward
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:59 pm

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cthia wrote:In the same vein as handing off missiles, I don't see why KH-II platforms cannot be shared (if ships are close enough), in the event that a ship has exhausted its supply. I remember the Old Lady coming quite close to doing just that on at least one occasion...

"We've lost another platform mam."

Albeit, I'm not sure if that was a KH-1 or II in that instance. At any rate, why can't KH-II platforms be shared?
Pretty sure that was a tethered decoy platform. “All” it does is fool missiles into shooting at it rather than at the real ship. Since largely supplanted by Ghost Rider free flying decoys and most recently the (somehow) far more capable Lorelei decoys.

As for sharing Keyholes. As others mentioned and the infodumps ellaborates on, FTL missile control is routinely bounced around a formation. Plus each ship carries 2 Keyholes, and at least with the IIs one is enough to control a whole squadron’s fire. So the loss on a few Keyholes in the formation shouldn’t reduce its firepower. Original Keyhole seems to be a different matter. At max fire rate those don’t have spare fire control capacity. So while you should be able to let another ship in your formation control your missiles the loss of a Keyhole can reduce the number of missiles a squadron can control. Though in some situations you can afford to expose your broadside and control your missiles through your hull mounted control links.

I assume the actual Keyhole and Keyhole II platforms are interchangeable enough that a ship could transfer one of theirs to a consort that lost both. But most likely not while under fire - that would be a post battle activity. (And only if you expected more combat before you can visit a yard or get a replacement from the fleet train)
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Re: The Charles Ward
Post by cthia   » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:01 am

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cthia wrote:An aside:

BTW, is there anyone in the forum who hasn't stood outside on a very cold morning before sunrise and recorded the elapsed time between the moment you saw the sunrise and the moment you began to feel its warmth?

I conducted an experiment in a seventh grade class doing exactly that, removing everyone's watches. The teacher was impressed. I was happy, because she was a real looker. I find myself reproducing the experiment whenever I have the chance, just to make sure the sun hasn't moved.

8 min 20 seconds should be the results. Try closing your eyes. It's more effective.


OMG! I have friends who just rang me all the way from Romania regarding this post. They never thought to try this. And now there sre several of them gathered together for a very early breakfast in Bucharest preparing to do exactly that.

They also asked how I got seventh graders together so early in the morning. My teacher had all of us meet at her house that Saturday morning for extra credit to conduct my experiment. They were all kept in the dark. Pardon the pun. She made breakfast sandwiches for us all.

Bucuresti is 7 hrs ahead. My friends rang me at 5:05 am Ro time. 10:05 pm here on the East coast. Sunrise in Bucuresti this morn is @ 7:50 am., but its raining and the experiment is going to have to wait.

They are doctors. Two are on call this morn. Incredible, my experiment continues abroad! Or, will continue when sunshine permits. LOL

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Charles Ward
Post by cthia   » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:16 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:In the same vein as handing off missiles, I don't see why KH-II platforms cannot be shared (if ships are close enough), in the event that a ship has exhausted its supply. I remember the Old Lady coming quite close to doing just that on at least one occasion...

"We've lost another platform mam."

Albeit, I'm not sure if that was a KH-1 or II in that instance. At any rate, why can't KH-II platforms be shared?
Pretty sure that was a tethered decoy platform. “All” it does is fool missiles into shooting at it rather than at the real ship. Since largely supplanted by Ghost Rider free flying decoys and most recently the (somehow) far more capable Lorelei decoys.

As for sharing Keyholes. As others mentioned and the infodumps ellaborates on, FTL missile control is routinely bounced around a formation. Plus each ship carries 2 Keyholes, and at least with the IIs one is enough to control a whole squadron’s fire. So the loss on a few Keyholes in the formation shouldn’t reduce its firepower. Original Keyhole seems to be a different matter. At max fire rate those don’t have spare fire control capacity. So while you should be able to let another ship in your formation control your missiles the loss of a Keyhole can reduce the number of missiles a squadron can control. Though in some situations you can afford to expose your broadside and control your missiles through your hull mounted control links.

I assume the actual Keyhole and Keyhole II platforms are interchangeable enough that a ship could transfer one of theirs to a consort that lost both. But most likely not while under fire - that would be a post battle activity. (And only if you expected more combat before you can visit a yard or get a replacement from the fleet train)

Thanks! Now that you've jogged my memory, they were tethered decoys.

Since they are bounced around -- and I recall that as well now that my memories have been jumped started -- then surely the tactic would be a piece of cake to pass off missiles downwind to an unfortunate soul who has shot themselves dry and facing fresh meat hypering in.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Charles Ward
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:00 am

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cthia wrote:[Since they are bounced around -- and I recall that as well now that my memories have been jumped started -- then surely the tactic would be a piece of cake to pass off missiles downwind to an unfortunate soul who has shot themselves dry and facing fresh meat hypering in.
Presumably. I image there are control keys/codes necessary to issue orders to the missiles. It’s possible those are only pre-shared around the squadron prior to entering enemy territory but you’d think even if so in a big enough emergency they’d take the risk to broadcast them under their best encryption to the orphaned forward unit.

cthia wrote:BTW, is there anyone in the forum who hasn't stood outside on a very cold morning before sunrise and recorded the elapsed time between the moment you saw the sunrise and the moment you began to feel its warmth?

I conducted an experiment in a seventh grade class doing exactly that, removing everyone's watches. The teacher was impressed. I was happy, because she was a real looker. I find myself reproducing the experiment whenever I have the chance, just to make sure the sun hasn't moved.

8 min 20 seconds should be the results. Try closing your eyes. It's more effective.
Never done that. Never even heard of that experiment. Not sure why that would be the case, and it seems strangely coincidental that the delay between light and warmth would equal the light speed delay to the sun when it’s the same photons that warm you as show you the sunrise.

I could see 2 - 5 minutes as that’s about how long in most populated latitudes it takes for the full disk of the sun to clear the horizon; and you might need the full output before you really feel the warmth. But 8 min 20 just seems unlikely as I can’t see a reason the warmth would start from the sun only the moment it broke the horizon.
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Re: The Charles Ward
Post by cthia   » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:18 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:[Since they are bounced around -- and I recall that as well now that my memories have been jumped started -- then surely the tactic would be a piece of cake to pass off missiles downwind to an unfortunate soul who has shot themselves dry and facing fresh meat hypering in.
Presumably. I image there are control keys/codes necessary to issue orders to the missiles. It’s possible those are only pre-shared around the squadron prior to entering enemy territory but you’d think even if so in a big enough emergency they’d take the risk to broadcast them under their best encryption to the orphaned forward unit.

cthia wrote:BTW, is there anyone in the forum who hasn't stood outside on a very cold morning before sunrise and recorded the elapsed time between the moment you saw the sunrise and the moment you began to feel its warmth?

I conducted an experiment in a seventh grade class doing exactly that, removing everyone's watches. The teacher was impressed. I was happy, because she was a real looker. I find myself reproducing the experiment whenever I have the chance, just to make sure the sun hasn't moved.

8 min 20 seconds should be the results. Try closing your eyes. It's more effective.
Never done that. Never even heard of that experiment. Not sure why that would be the case, and it seems strangely coincidental that the delay between light and warmth would equal the light speed delay to the sun when it’s the same photons that warm you as show you the sunrise.

I could see 2 - 5 minutes as that’s about how long in most populated latitudes it takes for the full disk of the sun to clear the horizon; and you might need the full output before you really feel the warmth. But 8 min 20 just seems unlikely as I can’t see a reason the warmth would start from the sun only the moment it broke the horizon.


The experiment is my own seventh grade conception. I am having more objections, than your own, from friends here in the states, who will also try it.

8 min. 20 sec. is the target time. The original results varied about 38 seconds.*

Never less than the amount of time imagined. Though I'm not sure if the difference back then was psychological. Seventh graders who didn't want to feel... different?

At any rate, try it yourself. Make sure you are facing the sun. Your face is a very good instrument for catching photons, on a cold enough morning where it starves for warmth. I've found it works better w/o a wind chill factor. And you do not have to wait for a full disk.

* There were a few almost right on the money.

It was a very controlled experiment back then. Watches were confiscated, eyes were closed and you raised your hand when you thought you felt warmth.

Be sure to get back with us if you try it. Also, make sure you clear your mind of all clutter. It is about the experiment. Go to your happy place.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Charles Ward
Post by tlb   » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:55 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:Never done that. Never even heard of that experiment. Not sure why that would be the case, and it seems strangely coincidental that the delay between light and warmth would equal the light speed delay to the sun when it’s the same photons that warm you as show you the sunrise.

I could see 2 - 5 minutes as that’s about how long in most populated latitudes it takes for the full disk of the sun to clear the horizon; and you might need the full output before you really feel the warmth. But 8 min 20 just seems unlikely as I can’t see a reason the warmth would start from the sun only the moment it broke the horizon.


Not quite true about the "same" photons because of frequency dependence of absorption and refraction. An English quiz show, called QI, stated that the Sun is actually below the horizon when the observer sees it as just touching due to refraction. Anyway I assume most heating is from the infrared spectrum, which might not get to you due to absorption until the Sun is truly some distance above the horizon.
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Re: The Charles Ward
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:27 am

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tlb wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Never done that. Never even heard of that experiment. Not sure why that would be the case, and it seems strangely coincidental that the delay between light and warmth would equal the light speed delay to the sun when it’s the same photons that warm you as show you the sunrise.

I could see 2 - 5 minutes as that’s about how long in most populated latitudes it takes for the full disk of the sun to clear the horizon; and you might need the full output before you really feel the warmth. But 8 min 20 just seems unlikely as I can’t see a reason the warmth would start from the sun only the moment it broke the horizon.


Not quite true about the "same" photons because of frequency dependence of absorption and refraction. An English quiz show, called QI, stated that the Sun is actually below the horizon when the observer sees it as just touching due to refraction. Anyway I assume most heating is from the infrared spectrum, which might not get to you due to absorption until the Sun is truly some distance above the horizon.
Fair point; IR’s presumably minimal refraction plus the sun needing to climb to the point the IR photons reach you through less atmosphere could cause some delay.
Still can’t see why such a delay would be expected to roughly equal the 8m 20s lightspeed delay from the sun. (Which as I understood it was the original hypothesis of the experiment)
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Re: The Charles Ward
Post by tlb   » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:49 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Still can’t see why such a delay would be expected to roughly equal the 8m 20s lightspeed delay from the sun. (Which as I understood it was the original hypothesis of the experiment)


Like you I do not believe the time lag has anything to do with distance from the Sun. I expect it is tied to the rotational speed of the Earth.
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Re: The Charles Ward
Post by cthia   » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:34 pm

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tlb wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:
Still can’t see why such a delay would be expected to roughly equal the 8m 20s lightspeed delay from the sun. (Which as I understood it was the original hypothesis of the experiment)


Like you I do not believe the time lag has anything to do with distance from the Sun. I expect it is tied to the rotational speed of the Earth.


Thing is, it's a simple enough experiment to reproduce. And totally free. Seek your own truths and I think you shall be pleasantly surprised. Tlb's info regarding the gameshow quiz is interesting, which leads me to want to try another experiment testing the time I can actually see the sun with the listed time for sunrise for my locale.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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