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The Charles Ward

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The Charles Ward
Post by cthia   » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:23 am

cthia
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A couple of things. I always thought that the backup command deck was also located down in CIC. Who is actually in charge on the backup command deck, the XO? The XO is always on the bridge with the Captain isn't he? It certainly seems that the responsibility would fall on someone's shoulders that could carry the weight...

SoV wrote:She looked around her bridge. CW might be armed, but she’d dispensed with the separate backup command deck of a true warship. There was a secondary tactical station located down in the big ship’s CIC, which was currently manned by Lieutenant (JG) Burgulya Gödert, her assistant tactical officer, and Lieutenant Yolanda Cornelius, CW’s electronic warfare officer, while Lieutenant Commander Atkins manned the bridge tac station with Paulo d’Arezzo as his EWO. At the moment—and hopefully for the foreseeable future—none of them had much to do.


Before RFC allegedly threw me a bone and kicked my notion upstairs to the Admiralty to arm missile colliers, I suggested that they really should be formidable weapons platforms, being chock-full of missiles. I also lightheartedly suggested that they should be able to put a lot of missiles into space very quickly. A Full Metal Dump. Akin to the notion of The Last Starfighter's death blossom. Ouch! Cut it out! The UMVs come pretty darn close to the idea. It would also be nice to know how many of these things the CW can carry.

Additionally, I asked long ago about the mechanism normally used to transfer payloads from colliers to ships? Has it been these UMVs all along?...

Which meant they almost certainly hadn’t had a clue the LACs were there…and that they equally almost certainly hadn’t noticed the pair of Mark-17 CUMV(L)s Charles Ward had dropped off along with her LACs.

The UMVs weren’t huge compared to CW herself, but the fleet support vessel had loaded four of them on her external racks before leaving Montana, and the Mark 17 variant had been designed to let ammunition colliers provide reloads to multiple SD(P)s simultaneously. Each of the unmanned, automated vehicles had the capacity to stow up to three hundred Mark 23 flatpack missile pods, and they were equipped with high-speed, high-volume cargo handling equipment to transfer them rapidly to the RMN’s SD(P)s pod rails. What they were not equipped with were weapons of their own, point defense, anything remotely like an impeller drive…or the stealth systems capable of hiding an impeller signature even if it had been physically possible to fit nodes into them. They were intended for only relatively short movements under reaction drive or using the small, equally unmanned towing units normally paired with them. Yet even though they hadn’t been designed for concealment, their size and lack of emissions made them very hard to detect except on active sensors at very short ranges.

The sort of sensors mounted by the recon drones which hadn’t come within ten or twelve millions kilometers of them.

Which was why Raven and Parasol—which were among the stealthiest vessels ever built—had taken the two CW had dropped off under tow and tagged along behind Alistair McKeon and her consorts at a much lower acceleration. Combined with their onboard stealth systems, they’d been almost impossible to detect, and they’d coordinated their acceleration with McKeon’s. Now the UMVs lay less than eight thousand kilometers ahead of Tremaine’s flag ship with the range closing at less than fifty kilometers per second, although that was climbing at 6.41 KPS. More to the point, the firs of them had already used its pressers to eject one hundred and forty pods—each of which contained nine Mark 23 D multidrive missiles—into space.

It was unlikely that many would be required, but the other four hundred and sixty were always available if Tremaine needed them.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Charles Ward
Post by Dauntless   » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:28 am

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most ships, but particularly CA and above normally had something called AuxCon (auxiliary control) that was basically a small but fully functional backup bridge and often the XO was stationed there when the ship was going into a fight to make sure that should the worst happen and the bridge was destroyed/knocked out then the second most capable officer with the assistants to the main bridge officers would fight the ship.

unlike nowadays ships the CIC seems to have very different duties to the bridge crew, my reading is that it basically analyses the battle looking for trends or other useful info that the bridge officers are too busy to focus on.
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Re: The Charles Ward
Post by Rajani Isa   » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:18 pm

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cthia wrote: I also lightheartedly suggested that they should be able to put a lot of missiles into space very quickly. A Full Metal Dump.


I believe the proper Tropean term would be "Macross Missile Massacre"
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Re: The Charles Ward
Post by kzt   » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:27 pm

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The whole plasma feed activation makes trying to do this really hard. I have no idea how the whole concept of moving the pod frame is supposed to work when you have to individually charge every pod, which on a SD(P) is only at the pod doors.

Essentially you end up with 2 million tons of inert electronics unless you feed each pod through the charging process and then you have to deploy the pod to get it free of the next pod. So after you spend an hour charging up the pods you then have to go and maneuver back into the frame using tractors. At which point you have a whole lot of running fusion reactors, each of which produces heat and radiation.
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Re: The Charles Ward
Post by cthia   » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:08 pm

cthia
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kzt wrote:The whole plasma feed activation makes trying to do this really hard. I have no idea how the whole concept of moving the pod frame is supposed to work when you have to individually charge every pod, which on a SD(P) is only at the pod doors.

Essentially you end up with 2 million tons of inert electronics unless you feed each pod through the charging process and then you have to deploy the pod to get it free of the next pod. So after you spend an hour charging up the pods you then have to go and maneuver back into the frame using tractors. At which point you have a whole lot of running fusion reactors, each of which produces heat and radiation.

Didn't I read somewhere in SoV of objects in space receiving transmitted power from ships? If so, then why can't recharge power for the pods be easily routed from the ship? Lest of course, RFC says no.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Charles Ward
Post by kzt   » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:26 pm

kzt
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cthia wrote:Didn't I read somewhere in SoV of objects in space receiving transmitted power from ships? If so, then why can't recharge power for the pods be easily routed from the ship? Lest of course, RFC says no.

David has stated that the only way to spin up the micro fusion reactors is via plasma ducts from the main reactors. Its also how you power the energy weapons and other high power systems in the honroverse.

So you have this network of plasma ducts full of multi-million degree plasma at a million bar running throughout the ship...
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Re: The Charles Ward
Post by Brigade XO   » Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:00 pm

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Is't that why the "Mr. Fusion" device was invented? To supply power to a realtivly small craft (or possibly a house). Perhaps an email to Professor Brown would clear this up. I understand he can be reached through Marty McFly/
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Re: The Charles Ward
Post by cthia   » Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:56 am

cthia
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The CW is of course a fleet auxiliary. Upon a wiki search it is noted that The Royal Fleet Auxiliary (RFA) is a civilian-manned fleet owned by the United Kingdom's Ministry of Defence, whose purpose is to support the Royal Navy. Why they would ever be civilian manned is beyond me. It isn't like enemy blockades are going to allow support ships full of fuel, food and munitions through simply because they are civilian.

Were the Honorverse's auxiliaries ever civilian manned, even before they were armed?

The CW is certainly not meant to go into battle, although if she has to, she can, certainly if up against Solly arrogance.

I thought I saw Ginger's own Saganami moment coming, for a minute there. I suppose I was simply projecting my wishes for Thomas Bachfish to achieve a little get back with his own Saganami moment to help out a GA force and personally exonerate, absolve himself. It sure would be a nice tidbit for the author to serve. Incidentally, Pirate's Bane is also a fleet auxiliary of the Silesian variety -- armed aftermarket.

Additionally, it sure would be nice to have the 411—a little personal, character building, background info—on Pirate's Bane's crew. Perhaps in a short story that kills two birds with one stone -- accomplishing her Captain's rehabilitation in the eyes of the RMN.

What a slap in the face it would be for a Solly force to be destroyed by two fleet auxiliaries, the CW and Pirate's Bane. LOL

After all, the silly Sollies are only acting like... pirates.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: The Charles Ward
Post by Brigade XO   » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:29 am

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cthia wrote:The CW is of course a fleet auxiliary. Upon a wiki search it is noted that The Royal Fleet Auxiliary (RFA) is a civilian-manned fleet owned by the United Kingdom's Ministry of Defence, whose purpose is to support the Royal Navy. Why they would ever be civilian manned is beyond me. It isn't like enemy blockades are going to allow support ships full of fuel, food and munitions through simply because they are civilian.

Were the Honorverse's auxiliaries ever civilian manned, even before they were unarmed?

The CW is certainly not meant to go into battle, although if she has to, she can, certainly if up against Solly arrogance.


That reminded me of ships like the USNR Bob Hope which is a Military Sealift Command ship. Civilian crews under contract to the government, in the case of the Bob Hope (at least was) anchored at Diego Garcia as part of the prepositioning program of equipment and supplies.

Not armed but would be carrying all sorts of supplies and equipment plus have the ability to offload that material where the military needs it. Depending on the ship class, they may or may not need some sort of port facility (even a rudimentary one) to deliver the material. In the Honorverse, this would be somewhat simplified since they could pass shipping contaniers or load shuttles (their own or from other Navy ships) for delivery.

The Pirate's Bane was a former Aldermani auxiluary transport and was armed from the beginning. Clearly the Aldermani were already dealing with the realities of the pirate problems in the Silesia area and required that their auxil transports could at least defend themselves against your garden variety of pirate. They might have to run away but they were going to make it difficult and probably expensive to chase them. Pirates really don't like having to fight a target that can fight back. Aside from the possibility that they could get killed, pirates don't like having their ships damaged nor that it is more expensive to try and capture something than the prize is worth. Bachfish bought her and another ship which were decommissioned by the Aldermani (with very quiet help from Manticorian ONI who did appreciate both his skill and commitment) with the weapons systems intact and is able to purchase reloads for his missile magazines etc. Bachfish also has licenses from the Aldermani (and earlier from various governments in the Silesia area) to operate these armed civilian ships in their systems and we might presume would now have one from Manticore to continue doing so.
He has been (mostly) quietly eliminating pirates in the Silesia area by letting them discover they have picked on the wrong merchant ship- and picking up reward and prize money by capturing or destroying them. Just part of his business model...big smile. Actually, if you have the experience, the competence, the trained (and motiviated) crew and availability of weapons, it is quite good one as it lets you trade -sucessfuly and more or less safely- in places where others would be avoiding and you can earn a premium on your shipping rates for what is essentialy hazardous duty areas where most merchants are worried about going. For Bachfish, it is also a vindication of his military service & experience and it has let him continue to both make a living and have the respect (justly earned) of the Aldermani, those in Manticore that know what happened and value a good officer doing his job, and the clients for whom he is providing a needed service that others are afraid to undertake.

The CW is not a civilian ship. Dispite the convoluted path the Janack (spelling) administration took to get there, it ended up being designed to deliver both munitions and proved repairs in front line conditions. It also has a fair amount of capasity to defend itself (in the spirit of the best defence is a good offense). So, this is clearly NOT some lightly armed merchant or liner and is expected to hang with fleet units to provide support in places that a freighter has little business being. You get a military crew with all the training that implies, firmly in the chain of command and not some soap-bubble that can't defend itself.
Not an escort CLAC, and not LAC squadron bolt-on package for a merchant ship. Armed Fleet Aux- with intragal LAC squadron.
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Re: The Charles Ward
Post by Theemile   » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:03 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:
cthia wrote:The CW is of course a fleet auxiliary. Upon a wiki search it is noted that The Royal Fleet Auxiliary (RFA) is a civilian-manned fleet owned by the United Kingdom's Ministry of Defence, whose purpose is to support the Royal Navy. Why they would ever be civilian manned is beyond me. It isn't like enemy blockades are going to allow support ships full of fuel, food and munitions through simply because they are civilian.

Were the Honorverse's auxiliaries ever civilian manned, even before they were unarmed?

The CW is certainly not meant to go into battle, although if she has to, she can, certainly if up against Solly arrogance.


That reminded me of ships like the USNR Bob Hope which is a Military Sealift Command ship. Civilian crews under contract to the government, in the case of the Bob Hope (at least was) anchored at Diego Garcia as part of the prepositioning program of equipment and supplies.

Not armed but would be carrying all sorts of supplies and equipment plus have the ability to offload that material where the military needs it. Depending on the ship class, they may or may not need some sort of port facility (even a rudimentary one) to deliver the material. In the Honorverse, this would be somewhat simplified since they could pass shipping contaniers or load shuttles (their own or from other Navy ships) for delivery.

The Pirate's Bane was a former Aldermani auxiluary transport and was armed from the beginning. Clearly the Aldermani were already dealing with the realities of the pirate problems in the Silesia area and required that their auxil transports could at least defend themselves against your garden variety of pirate. They might have to run away but they were going to make it difficult and probably expensive to chase them. Pirates really don't like having to fight a target that can fight back. Aside from the possibility that they could get killed, pirates don't like having their ships damaged nor that it is more expensive to try and capture something than the prize is worth. Bachfish bought her and another ship which were decommissioned by the Aldermani (with very quiet help from Manticorian ONI who did appreciate both his skill and commitment) with the weapons systems intact and is able to purchase reloads for his missile magazines etc. Bachfish also has licenses from the Aldermani (and earlier from various governments in the Silesia area) to operate these armed civilian ships in their systems and we might presume would now have one from Manticore to continue doing so.
He has been (mostly) quietly eliminating pirates in the Silesia area by letting them discover they have picked on the wrong merchant ship- and picking up reward and prize money by capturing or destroying them. Just part of his business model...big smile. Actually, if you have the experience, the competence, the trained (and motiviated) crew and availability of weapons, it is quite good one as it lets you trade -sucessfuly and more or less safely- in places where others would be avoiding and you can earn a premium on your shipping rates for what is essentialy hazardous duty areas where most merchants are worried about going. For Bachfish, it is also a vindication of his military service & experience and it has let him continue to both make a living and have the respect (justly earned) of the Aldermani, those in Manticore that know what happened and value a good officer doing his job, and the clients for whom he is providing a needed service that others are afraid to undertake.

The CW is not a civilian ship. Dispite the convoluted path the Janack (spelling) administration took to get there, it ended up being designed to deliver both munitions and proved repairs in front line conditions. It also has a fair amount of capasity to defend itself (in the spirit of the best defence is a good offense). So, this is clearly NOT some lightly armed merchant or liner and is expected to hang with fleet units to provide support in places that a freighter has little business being. You get a military crew with all the training that implies, firmly in the chain of command and not some soap-bubble that can't defend itself.
Not an escort CLAC, and not LAC squadron bolt-on package for a merchant ship. Armed Fleet Aux- with intragal LAC squadron.


About 5 years ago, I posted a thread called "1922: patrolling the Talbott quadrant with medium units" The main point of the post was Manticore's greatest advantage was it's force multiplier found in pods, and especially for light and medium units, you cannot patrol with heavy pod loads, as their reactor's "tactical lifespan" when using the internal tractor, limited them to a fraction of their max pod load when using only ship tractors.


I pointed out that for medium forces to be most effective, they required a podlayer that could keep up with them, and support them when they were on station. In fact it needed to be able to stay in formation with the patrolling squadron, as they never knew, if after they crossed the hyperlimit, if they would require pods. And if it had to be hazarded like that, it should have it's own firecontrol and defenses. Even if it wasn't brought into a system, it could be on it's own at the hyperlimit or deep space, which may force a squadron to split up to guard the auxiliary - so having at least a small internal defensive/offensive suite would be a good idea for squadrons at the tip of the spear.

At the time, the options were Frieghters, AMCs, Spec built Ammo Carriers, Fast Minelayers, and BC(p)s. I dismissed the Freighters and AMCs outside my analysis, they were way too slow to keep up with CLs, CAs and BCs, and eventually would be left behind for the sake of expedience, and thus not be available when truly needed.

The Ammo Carriers, like the 4.5Mton Volcano class, were a decent solution, but (despite their integrated defenses) lacked offensive firecontrol. They were probably fairly cheap to build, but adding firecontrol would change that, and require a larger crew than the ~70 they currently had. Besides, their speed made them a better fit with the wallers they normally supported.



Fast Minelayers and BC(P)s were left. Both are on BC frames, with BC impellers and comps - so fast enough to almost keep up with CLs and CAs. However Fast Minelayers are like ammo ships - small crews, with no firecontrol - and adding firecontrol got you into the price, and crew size of a BC(p).

So, my conclusion was in 1922/23, we would see the remaining mk 16 armed BC(p)s leading squadrons of defensive patrols and raiding squadrons.

Well, I was wrong, but for the right reasons. The FCs are definitely the class for the need I forsaw, and more. It is also a light repair ship , and parts storage. Even without pods, with it's 8 LACs, it has the firepower of a modern light cruiser squadron, so has the ability to control a system by itself if necessary. They free the BC(p)s up to be independent strike forces, not glorified freighters.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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