[Spoiler - UH] utube snippet

ldwechsler wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:I don't think Harlap had been on Mesa except in direct result of his rescue and recruitement by the Alignment. From what I remember, he was working out of Meyers of OFS and it sounded like he had been based there a while. Not there full time or perhaps even most of the time for a number of years because he was out in the field doing stuff. But he reported to his Major on Meyers. He may or may not have come from a world that was covered by Vorrechio (spelling) who was the OFS Governor with his HQ and adminstration on Meyers.
He wasn't an actual Alignement agent nor know about anyone other than the local branch of OFS/Gendarms being involved with his rabble-rousing job that OFS. What he may or may not have in inhancements -including Prolong- or things like anti-capture protocals would be OFS provided stuff.
That Isabel and friends were adding things on top of the Prolong and OFS agent specific additions is a seperate piece. All of the things Isabel would have been adding to agents - as needed per basic or operational specific details are going to, perhaps, be identifiable as Mesan derivation (Manpower and other commercial opercial entities even if government specific) or they are Alignment created. And there you hit a couple of serious differences in what you are dealing with.
It is possible that Manpower would have come up with things like the vision improvement/inhancements. It's a commercial usefull application, not limited to soldiers or spies. It is probably something Beowulf would have problems about but certainly not Manopwer
Same with a better QuickHeal. Depending on how the creater got to it (and how it works) it might or might not be something Beowulf would have a problem (Denebriam Octopus embryo stem cells mixe up in Human DNA- I think not) but could be a massive commercial success for people and situations who don't respond to the exsiting class of treatment such as available via Manticore or Beowulf. The question then becomes if it is something that came out of the Alignment lab operations which may be buried inside Manpower or other corporations, or it is an Alignment developed product- either at Mesa or out at Darius.
In theory, something deveoped on Mesa is going to be different enough from something at Darius to be noticed as being "different"- IF you are looking closely or specificaly from things that are not already known. Presumably a number of the products/treatments developed by "Mesa" are at least already identified and known to appropriate people on both Beowulf and Manticore. Beowulf because they may be driven to know, Manticore because it has such a large number of former genetic slaves and their decendents and would have needed to be abel to identify and treat people with some very non-standard genetic changes.
Remember, there is stuff that Harlap was given that he doesn't know about. Not the Reset-or-Die package he didn't get, but they did run him though a battery of tests and seem to have given him what could be boosters for things he already had or small tweaks to improve performance. It is that additional stuff is what will look different.
It is not yet clear if Maticore has enough samples in enogh time frame from the events to identify the nanite weapon. Is there anything that Isabel had put into Harlap that would or could flag as someting that came from the same development as the nanite. Kind of like what Malaria shot you got and where was it made. There is NO evidence that Harlap has the assasin nanite, there was no reason to give him that, there was no defined target or thing for him to do that required it and the Death-at-time-out stuf is really straight forward compaired to the assis nanite.
They are going to want to see what he has accumulated in things he has been given and determine the origin.

With a bit of luck, we will learn about all of this in the next book.

Chances are, there is a lot that can be learned. And I'd bet there are survivors on Mesa who can point out a lot of things about genetics.

Remember that Houdini was rushed. There will be people around who know things. And GA intelligence people who will know what to ask.

I agree. It is sort of telegraphing the residual radiation. A rushed Houdini, very rushed, has obviously primed the pump for plot.

When you rush for a vacation, someone always leaves something behind that was desperately needed. "Oh shoot, I forgot the tanning lotion!" Whatever is symbolic of the tanning lotion the Malign left behind, someone is going to get burned.

ywing14 wrote:

ldwechsler wrote:
With a bit of luck, we will learn about all of this in the next book.

Chances are, there is a lot that can be learned. And I'd bet there are survivors on Mesa who can point out a lot of things about genetics.

Remember that Houdini was rushed. There will be people around who know things. And GA intelligence people who will know what to ask.

I agree, while I realize it was a nuclear explosion, generally speaking not everything is destroyed the way people think. Many times pieces and things are left behind that people would have assumed would be consumed by the blast. I don't even necessarily think it'll be people, though some people "running late" wouldn't shock.

ldwechsler wrote:Harahap has figured out a lot more than was thought possible by the Detweilers, why not others? There are constant reminders that things get left behind. Remember that the GA can send a lot of intelligence people to Mesa for quite a while. It is no longer run by MAlign.

Absolutely. And the things that he has figured out has been on the fly. What can he accomplish mentally, when he is allowed a bit of calm [intro retro]spection. Paired and cross referenced with ONI's findings.

JohnRoth wrote:

ldwechsler wrote:
Right. Remember that Manpower and its work are part of the onion.

Um. Manpower is not part of the onion. They're an outside organization that's infiltrated and controlled by the MAlign, but the Manpower management etc. has no idea that the MAlign exists. A lot of Manpower's research has been taken and used by the MAlign, and it's used as a stalking horse to keep people from suspecting the existence of the MAlign but that's the extent of the connection.

And ... their usefulness is over, so they'll be exterminated with extreme prejudice over the next few years.

Which has always been a little suspect to me. Was the entire Manpower management operating in a vacuum with their heads deeply embedded in their anal orifices? It only took one Harahap to deduce a lot of key elements. It would only take one conscientious, half way intelligent Manpower employee to surmise something. Especially in light of Houdini's rushed departure and failure to tie off some loose ends. "Hey, that guy never came by to get this last chip."

Schit happens because everybody has an anus and they aren't all clean.

JohnRoth wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:Not exactly. Leonard Detweiler left Beowuf to colonize Mesa with "like minded" people. There were several hundred, or so, people working on the dangerous side of the "genetic fence."

I'm sure that there were even more "like-minded" immigrants over the years since Mesa was colonized.

Over the centuries, enough outside DNA has been imported into "improving" the Detweiler genome that Leonard, himself, probably would qualify as a "Detweiler" by current LRPB standards.

They have time travel? Your comment makes no sense.

cthia wrote:You're not thinking like an ONI agent. At least not like a Manty ONI agent, vested by Pat Givens.

Detweiler and the number of people known to be dabbling in the black arts is just one filter. And that one filter has already reduced the "persons of interest" to simply "several hundred" as you say? Out of billions scattered about the Honorverse. What a helluva first filter for a fine first step.

Then, the next filter would be financial background checks. An operation of this magnitude has deep pockets. That fact should be obvious even to idiots like the Solarians. It was obvious to Harahap, who deduced as much in the available info dump. And if Harahap can put these things together, so can RMN intelligence. How many of the several hundred people capable of that kind of intelligence also has the same cavernous bank accounts?

Also, the nanites themselves are technology that can be analyzed if a sample can be acquired.

"Cross reference your findings with everyone who wore green underwear on Friday." That's the intel probably available on some planets -- like the shockingly unfathomable, privacy forfeited planets out on the "Verge of Way Beyond."*

Now, to be sure. Detweiler would have covered his financial tracks. BUT! None of the other "persons of interest" even remotely, have the depth of pockets needed to feed this hidden entity. BUT AGAIN! Where are the Detweilers who were known to also dabble in the black arts? They were the number one name in the old days, when the feud originally began between Leonard and Beowulf.

That makes three, three filters that ONI inexperienced cthia has come up with. I'm certain Pat Givens would use many more different types of filters to reduce the playing field. (I could state what some of those might be, but then I'll have to kill some of you, since rank hath its privileges. LOL)

*We've seen glimpses of these computers on tv...

"Now cross-reference X with XY."

"That's a hit sir! That narrows down the possibilities to simply 4 outfits. Two of them are ours."

ldwechsler wrote:I HAVE had a bit of experience in that area (granted it was 50 years ago) and you are right. Even more to the point, Zilwicki and Cachat have noted that Manpower and, indeed, Mesa do not act like a regular corporation. They know that something is fishy with Manpower in terms of behavior.

They will be looking at data on Mesa and will probably have help from some Mesans...like Harahap. Once directed properly, they can learn a lot.

Also, there were non-Detweilers doing genetics. Call Manpower.
And a lot of work was being done on a lot of settled planets including Beowulf.

Sigh,

Let's see if we can clarify the situation. As far as genetic work is concerned, Beowulf and Mesa are the front-runners, the rest of the galaxy lags behind them.

On Mesa, there are three organizations doing major genetic modification work: Manpower, Mesan Genetic Consultancy (*) and the MAlign. By this I mean organizations, not individuals.

The Detweiler line supposedly died out a long time ago - there are no main-line descendants. There may be people named Detweiller but they are not main-line descendents of Leonard. The fact that there are actually descendants of Leonard, and that they're the core of the onion, is restricted to the very inner core.

Now the way I'd find Colin is to take the picture they made from Damien's information and give it to the Mesan Bureau of Investigation (?), and tell them to correlate that with people who were seriously injured in the Green Pines explosion. The odds are very high that if they find someone, that person will not be named Colin Detweiler, although it will in fact be Colin. He will have died as a result of "Ballroom terrorist activity."

Harahap is not a Mesan. He grew up on a planet whose name we don't know. It was taken over by the OFS when he was 8, and he left to join the Solarian Gendarme when he was 18. How much time he's spent on Mesa other than what's shown in SoV is unknown. (This information is at the very beginning of the video, and the sound is garbled badly.)

(*) CoG, Chapter 56, p465, last paragraph and following.

Do pardon my bold to call attention.

Which should make it easier, as you are relegated to investigating conglomerates and not individuals. Of these known conglomerates doing major genetic modification, the scope of their work—the breakthroughs, capabilities and advancements—is different. They may not be as varied from each other as they are from the rest of the galaxy, but probably varied enough. In these instances, conglomerates usually specialize in certain untapped areas. Niches.

JohnRoth wrote:

ldwechsler wrote:
Right. Remember that Manpower and its work are part of the onion.

Um. Manpower is not part of the onion. They're an outside organization that's infiltrated and controlled by the MAlign, but the Manpower management etc. has no idea that the MAlign exists. A lot of Manpower's research has been taken and used by the MAlign, and it's used as a stalking horse to keep people from suspecting the existence of the MAlign but that's the extent of the connection.

And ... their usefulness is over, so they'll be exterminated with extreme prejudice over the next few years.

ldwechsler wrote:Which has always been a little suspect to me. Was the entire Manpower management operating in a vacuum with their heads deeply embedded in their anal orifices? It only took one Harahap to deduce a lot of key elements. It would only take one conscientious, half way intelligent Manpower employee to surmise something. Especially in light of Houdini's rushed departure and failure to tie off some loose ends. "Hey, that guy never came by to get this last chip."

cthia wrote:Schit happens because everybody has an anus and they aren't all clean.

Oh, there have always been people who suspect that something is going on, and that the higher-ups aren't always acting rationally. There are examples of that in a number of places, including a couple in ToF.

The reason for exterminating Manpower at this point is not just that Manpower's usefulness is over, it's that the existence of genetic slavery is counterproductive for the MAlign's final phase: getting everyone on board with the idea of universal genetic enhancement.

That's completely independent of Houdini being rushed. And the MAlign isn't going to insist on doing it themselves: if the Audubon Ballroom, the GA and the Kingdom of Torch want to do it for them, fine. In fact, I expect that Admirals Henke and Tourville are going to eliminate Manpower on Mesa just as soon as Jeremy X arrives to consult, if not sooner.

JohnRoth wrote:A lot of well-designed crimes have been discovered because the criminal couldn't keep cis hands off after the crime was committed. Detectives are trained to look at everything, and the person who can do an investigation without leaving ripples doesn't exist.

It's called the mistake of returning to the scene of the crime. Attribute it to psychological investment in, yep, the human element.

When successful in committing a crime, it is difficult to lay low when the booty is so high. You've just stolen a billion dollars and you're sitting atop of it. Hard to lay low when you're riding high.

One other thing I think bears mentioning. During Houdini there were entities (I forgot the name of them (Scrags?)) who were tasked with riding herd on some of the more risky charges. It reminds me of the People's Commissioners tasked with riding herd on some of the officers. Perhaps the same sort of ingredients from the human element could come into to play. Sympathy and empathy.

To be fair, the People's Commissioners spent lots of time with the officers, where in this case, time for the herders to bond with the riders may be absent. But still, emotional weakness can happen at the drop of a tear.

I don't think Admirals Henke and Tourville are going to eliminate Manpower on Mesa in the way that sounds. What is more likely is that they (probably in conjuction with Jereme X and others) are going to have to deconstruct Manpower in some orderly fashion to retain records, and safely shut down what needs to be shut down while protecting the inocent and not destroying billions of credidts in equipment which can and should be used elcewhere.
Manpower is not the only corporation that will have to happen to. At the very least, all the local operations of the TransStellars in-system plus the other companies that worked with and for Manpower in the genetic slave and research operations will need to be examined. Given what they were doing, it would be prudent to invite in Beowulf to assist. That would add other levels and specialties of fields to discover what was done and how in both the research and get some sort of handle on the medical conditions and modifications to the slaves and others.
Total mess.

Place/assign blame for slavery, sure. Trying these people under former Mesan law is going to be be odd if not impossible exept where they broke actual Mesan law.

Amoung other considerations are all the genetic slaves presently under the control and existing only on the support of Manpower and it's subsidiaries. Even if you have a lot of adults, they are probably not anywhere near ready to funtion as free and independt people ON MESA, let alone elcewhere. Liberating even several hundred slaves on a slave ship only puts a microscopic drop of people into whaterver planitary system they are taken to (Beowulf, Manticore, even Torch.)
So some mechanism has to be set up to transition these former slaves into the general population of Mesa and find them employment, even if what various people - say Torch- would be willing to take them by the shipload. Still have to keep them alive and get them there before starting their education and learning skills.
Then there is the current batches of slaves in the process of being grown in the uterine replicatiors -literaly on an industrial scale- and the staffs and support personel that oversee and maintain all that. You can't just cut the power and dump the fetuses -at least the people incharge from Manticore, Haven, Torch can't. So they need to be carried at least to term (with a range of a couple of days to full term with imminent decanting. Time, people support....and then caring for the infants. The actual locations may stay the same but so much other stuff is going to have to change.

To be practical, all of that Manpower laboratory and industrial artificial birth enviornment equipment and infrastructure has a significant medical value. It is probable that Manpower or a number of it's subsidiaries was also the primary manufacture of uterine replicatiors for the Citizen portion of Mesa's population including supplying the hospitals and private clinics. Just scrapping it vs cleaning, reconditioning and then selling it off-world to help pay for at least partial rebuilding of much of Mesa is crazy. Even if some parties are going to want any proceeds to be "given" or at least allocated to improving the lot (and education, training or immigration) of the former slaves and seccies, the equipment should be treated as a resource. No, I don't trust the actual Manpower employees to handle that.

Even with Houdini and then Albrect's spectacular exit accompanied by 30 nuclear blasts, it is going to take a long time and a lot of people to sort out what the hell was going on with Mesa. That means people (security, accountants, investigators and some sort of longish time occupation scheme to find and look through all that "paperwork" and records.

A bunch of this is probably going to come back and bite the Alignment in the ass because when people get around to actualy proving that this was, in the great part, an Alignment operation, the backlash will impact on the Alignment grand plan.
How? Things in the genetics- the "research" labs and the varioius slave populations that match -later- things in the Alignment are trackable. You can show where they originated (Mesa labs). Unless, of course, a lot of that research and lab space is also now radioactive dust and glowing holes in Mesa.

cthia wrote:One other thing I think bears mentioning. During Houdini there were entities (I forgot the name of them (Scrags?)) who were tasked with riding herd on some of the more risky charges. It reminds me of the People's Commissioners tasked with riding herd on some of the officers. Perhaps the same sort of ingredients from the human element could come into to play. Sympathy and empathy.

To be fair, the People's Commissioners spent lots of time with the officers, where in this case, time for the herders to bond with the riders may be absent. But still, emotional weakness can happen at the drop of a tear.

I believe those guards were called GAULs and were very carefully trained/conditioned to make sure this exact problem did not happen

Brigade XO wrote:I don't think Admirals Henke and Tourville are going to eliminate Manpower on Mesa in the way that sounds. What is more likely is that they (probably in conjuction with Jereme X and others) are going to have to deconstruct Manpower in some orderly fashion to retain records, and safely shut down what needs to be shut down while protecting the inocent and not destroying billions of credidts in equipment which can and should be used elcewhere.
Manpower is not the only corporation that will have to happen to. At the very least, all the local operations of the TransStellars in-system plus the other companies that worked with and for Manpower in the genetic slave and research operations will need to be examined. Given what they were doing, it would be prudent to invite in Beowulf to assist. That would add other levels and specialties of fields to discover what was done and how in both the research and get some sort of handle on the medical conditions and modifications to the slaves and others.
Total mess.

Place/assign blame for slavery, sure. Trying these people under former Mesan law is going to be be odd if not impossible exept where they broke actual Mesan law.

Amoung other considerations are all the genetic slaves presently under the control and existing only on the support of Manpower and it's subsidiaries. Even if you have a lot of adults, they are probably not anywhere near ready to funtion as free and independt people ON MESA, let alone elcewhere. Liberating even several hundred slaves on a slave ship only puts a microscopic drop of people into whaterver planitary system they are taken to (Beowulf, Manticore, even Torch.)
So some mechanism has to be set up to transition these former slaves into the general population of Mesa and find them employment, even if what various people - say Torch- would be willing to take them by the shipload. Still have to keep them alive and get them there before starting their education and learning skills.
Then there is the current batches of slaves in the process of being grown in the uterine replicatiors -literaly on an industrial scale- and the staffs and support personel that oversee and maintain all that. You can't just cut the power and dump the fetuses -at least the people incharge from Manticore, Haven, Torch can't. So they need to be carried at least to term (with a range of a couple of days to full term with imminent decanting. Time, people support....and then caring for the infants. The actual locations may stay the same but so much other stuff is going to have to change.

To be practical, all of that Manpower laboratory and industrial artificial birth enviornment equipment and infrastructure has a significant medical value. It is probable that Manpower or a number of it's subsidiaries was also the primary manufacture of uterine replicatiors for the Citizen portion of Mesa's population including supplying the hospitals and private clinics. Just scrapping it vs cleaning, reconditioning and then selling it off-world to help pay for at least partial rebuilding of much of Mesa is crazy. Even if some parties are going to want any proceeds to be "given" or at least allocated to improving the lot (and education, training or immigration) of the former slaves and seccies, the equipment should be treated as a resource. No, I don't trust the actual Manpower employees to handle that.

Even with Houdini and then Albrect's spectacular exit accompanied by 30 nuclear blasts, it is going to take a long time and a lot of people to sort out what the hell was going on with Mesa. That means people (security, accountants, investigators and some sort of longish time occupation scheme to find and look through all that "paperwork" and records.

A bunch of this is probably going to come back and bite the Alignment in the ass because when people get around to actualy proving that this was, in the great part, an Alignment operation, the backlash will impact on the Alignment grand plan.
How? Things in the genetics- the "research" labs and the varioius slave populations that match -later- things in the Alignment are trackable. You can show where they originated (Mesa labs). Unless, of course, a lot of that research and lab space is also now radioactive dust and glowing holes in Mesa.

I'm waiting for the Hali Sowli, the Sparatacus, and a half dozen Torch Frigates to cross the hyperlimit, with a Regiment from the Torch Army on the Hali Sowli, and "take control" of the situation on Mesa. Watching a CA take over command of a 60 SD force, and 1500 men take control of a 1.5 million man army will be... Interesting...