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[Spoiler - UH] utube snippet

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Re: [Spoiler - UH] utube snippet
Post by JohnRoth   » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:56 pm

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Here's an excerpt from a post RFC made a few years ago on this forum. Note that, for some unknown reason, RFC's posts here are not in the snippets database.

on 2011-06-18 RFC wrote:By this point, the Mesan Alignment's innermost leadership truly have become sociopaths where their great and burning purpose is concerned. Not only that, they have a tunnel vision which is literally centuries old. They've been so focused for so long, for so many GENERATIONS, that they simply can't see what became blindingly obvious to Jack McBryde, which is that if they are in fact right, a fraction of the effort they've spent on building their strategy and the means to accomplish it would have paid for a propaganda/PR campaign that would almost have to have convinced a significant percentage of the human race to agree with them. They wrote that possibility off so long ago that it's not even on their menu of options. And after all this time, the Alignment HAS to defeat Beowulf (and prove its own moral superiority in the process) in order to justify and, if you will, sanctify all of the effort and all of the wealth and all of the destruction of lives which it has poured into its struggle. It's not logical, but let's face it, logic is seldom the most powerful motivating factor where human beings are concerned.


NOTE - this is a single paragraph extracted from a much longer post.
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Re: [Spoiler - UH] utube snippet
Post by tlb   » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:08 pm

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A better analogy than "separate species" is the one I think the author is using: they are the "True Believers" engaged in a centuries long guerilla war and people die in war.

Was Nazism evil and the people who believed in it bad?
Yes, most definitely

Is the Malign evil and the people who believe in it bad?
Yes, most definitely

Are bad people who believe in evil world domination psychopaths?

Maybe a few, but psychopaths do not work well with others. The point is that psychopathy is a work with a specific meaning and a person can be mean, evil, wicked, bad and nasty (to quote the Smothers Brothers) without being one. No organization, no matter how evil, can function if it is composed mostly of psychopaths.

The optimum size for an organization of psychopaths is one. Only by adding dupes can it get much bigger.

Malign has had its success because it composed of loyal, intelligent people, who can work together to accomplish the mission. No self doubts allowed.
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Re: [Spoiler - UH] utube snippet
Post by ldwechsler   » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:17 pm

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tlb wrote:A better analogy than "separate species" is the one I think the author is using: they are the "True Believers" engaged in a centuries long guerilla war and people die in war.

Was Nazism evil and the people who believed in it bad?
Yes, most definitely

Is the Malign evil and the people who believe in it bad?
Yes, most definitely

Are bad people who believe in evil world domination psychopaths?

Maybe a few, but psychopaths do not work well with others. The point is that psychopathy is a work with a specific meaning and a person can be mean, evil, wicked, bad and nasty (to quote the Smothers Brothers) without being one. No organization, no matter how evil, can function if it is composed mostly of psychopaths.

The optimum size for an organization of psychopaths is one. Only by adding dupes can it get much bigger.

Malign has had its success because it composed of loyal, intelligent people, who can work together to accomplish the mission. No self doubts allowed.


That is the problem. Notice that the issue is always Naziism, not Communism. Communists have killed far more people. Nazism was confined to a relatively small area for a short period of time.

Yet John Lennon wrote "Imagine" as a salute to communism and I have a friend with a Che Guevara T shirt who simply says that "Che believed in something."

Most of the people involved in MAlign probably had fairly little idea of exactly what was planned. We know a real lot of them hated Manpower. That does not sound like psychopaths.

They believed they could improve mankind. As do communists, socialists, and a whole lost of others. That much of it doesn't work seems lost.
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Re: [Spoiler - UH] utube snippet
Post by quite possibly a cat   » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:45 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:Given what they have been experimenting with we have been shown, the Alignment (and Manpower) has been doing all sorts of "interesting" things combining human and non-human DNA. At this point I'm surprized we don't have crosses that are effectivly sentient trees (or shrubs) of intial Terrestraial species including Humand and Hops.

The Alignment actually does pretty heavily restrict the changes they'll make. Its why they haven't created those "organic processors" I suggested for their spaceships, or created massive super brains, or tried to create a human-treecat chimera. I mean, the first step if you want more computing power is to add more processors!

Nor have they done stuff like make a self-replicating nanobot that individually replaces neurons in your brain with functional artificial neuron copies. Or they could just go for a virtual simulation. But they're way too tied to this idea of human to go for it!

Really these guys are just a little bit less Neo-Luddite than Beowulf when it comes to genetics. Really, Mesa needs its own Dettweiler to try and get them to drop their neo-luddite tendencies and go full-on biohorror. Because there are going to be alien species out there which aren't neo-luddites and humanity needs to be ready! Would you like to know more?
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Re: [Spoiler - UH] utube snippet
Post by tlb   » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:39 am

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ldwechsler wrote:That is the problem. Notice that the issue is always Naziism, not Communism. Communists have killed far more people. Nazism was confined to a relatively small area for a short period of time.


That may be a problem in general discourse, but it is not THE problem in this thread.

First: because the Malign was compared to the Nazis earlier, not to the communists. So I did not list every bad "ism".
Second: because the Nazis (despite Godwin's Law of internet discussion) are really a very good comparison to the Malign, as both believe in a Super Race and have a plan for world domination that involves killing the undesirables.

Communist regimes have killed multitudes; but if the Nazi total is less, it was not for lack of effort.
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Re: [Spoiler - UH] utube snippet
Post by ldwechsler   » Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:24 pm

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tlb wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:That is the problem. Notice that the issue is always Naziism, not Communism. Communists have killed far more people. Nazism was confined to a relatively small area for a short period of time.


That may be a problem in general discourse, but it is not THE problem in this thread.

First: because the Malign was compared to the Nazis earlier, not to the communists. So I did not list every bad "ism".
Second: because the Nazis (despite Godwin's Law of internet discussion) are really a very good comparison to the Malign, as both believe in a Super Race and have a plan for world domination that involves killing the undesirables.

Communist regimes have killed multitudes; but if the Nazi total is less, it was not for lack of effort.



While I agree both Nazism and Communism are evil, I am simply pointing out how many people love that lipstick on the pig.

The NY Times got a Pulitzer Prize for NOT reporting on planned famines in Russia.

The important point is that there have been limits as far as we've seen on the experimentation. Breeding for size, breeding for looks, etc., still doesn't push things all that far.

And, as for master race, they seem to want to do it through genetics. Margaret Sanger, who is praised as the founder of Planned Parenthood, pushed for abortions to the lower classes, particularly blacks, as a way of improvement of the race.

In a sense, she is an intellectual ancestor of Detweiler.
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Re: [Spoiler - UH] utube snippet
Post by cthia   » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:19 pm

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tlb wrote:
Storm from the Shadows, Chapter 20 wrote:
But some of those "hedonistic sybarites" were anything but useless drones, and Bardasano was a prime example. In fact, she was the prime example. The Bardasano genotype had been notable for at least half a dozen generations for its intelligence and ruthless determination. There'd been a few unfortunate and unintended traits, as well, unhappily, and at one point there'd been serious consideration of simply culling the line's last several iterations and starting over again from a significantly earlier point. The positive traits had been so strong, however, that a remedial program had been instituted, instead, and Isabel was the current example of how successful it had been. It had been necessary to eliminate two of her immediate predecessors when their inherent ruthlessness had made them just a bit too ambitious for anyone else's good, but intelligent ambition, properly tempered, was always a useful thing, as Bardasano herself demonstrated. And if there was still a slight tendency towards sexual disorders and mildly sociopathic behaviors, neither of those posed any serious handicap, especially for someone whose area of expertise was covert operations. Of course, they'd have to be dealt with in the next generation or two if the Bardasano line was going to earn back permanent alpha status within the Alignment, which Isabel understood.

In the meantime, however, she was quite possibly the best covert ops specialist the Alignment had produced in at least the last T-century. It amused Detweiler that those outside the Alignment's innermost circle often cherished doubts about Bardasano's sanity, particularly when it came to her attitude towards him. The fact that it was well known within Mesa's star lines that the Bardasanos had almost been culled meant that her apparent insouciance with him only added to her reputation for . . . oddness, and provided a valuable extra level of protection when he or one of his sons called upon her services. As he gazed at her across the desk, he toyed once more with the notion of telling her that a cross between the Bardasano and Detweiler genotypes was even then being evaluated, but decided against it. For now, at least.


It helps when the original text is included in a discussion. The main problems the Planning Board had with the Bardasona genome have already been dealt with; all that remains are the possibilities of mild sociopathy and sexual deviance.
The problem with Marinescu is that she enjoys the killing. Isabel is fearless and remorseless, but looks on killing as just business, nothing personal.
cthia wrote:Thanks for the additional textev. But I doubt the stubbornness gene in the forum is going to acknowledge that the two women are both Bardasanos.

Do allow me to point out that the problem in the Bardasano line has not been dealt with as I digest it. Simply a band-aid has been placed on the wound with the "remedial treatment." Of course I personally wonder exactly what that "remedial treatment" entails. The aforementioned date with a Gaul dishing out shock therapies that I previously suggested, maybe? LOL

It is interesting that the textev you supplied brings up sociopathy. My niece had already sent me an interesting email that I wasn't going to post because it was after I threw in the towel. But, what the heck. I've noticed resentment of previous posts of my niece's thoughts but I can't take credit for what ain't mine. Though I'd like to in most cases. So you'll just have to get over it.

niece wrote:Interesting pile of stinky conundrum you've gotten yourself into again. Whenever I'm bored I know exactly where to find entertainment. Although it's ever costly in popped corn. lols

"So far as Chernyshev was aware, on the other hand, there was no known history of instability in Marinescu’s genome."

It appears to me that everyone is misinterpreting this quote because of a very profound subtlety found in its possessive nature.

It says there was no known history of stability in Marinescu's personal genome and not The Marinescu genome itself as it does with Bardasano. Which if it did, it would clear the path for their counter argument. Along the same corridor, the quote does not say Bardasano's genome but THE Bardasano genome. There is an ocean of difference.

It appears the passage does not specifically refer to "The Marinescu genome" as it does "The Bardasano genome" because the passage assumes its free flowing nature implies the subject of the genome.

Perhaps they do not realize playing with genetic code is like baking cookies. Sometimes you get a bad batch. Sometimes they are okay but there is just a little too much of one ingredient, obviously nutmeg in this case, which leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

This contains the entire logic of why Cherneyshev brings up psychopathy. Marinescu, up to that point hadn't FU and let the psychopathic cat out of the bag that she does suffer from the same power outage.

In addition, it seems to be a moot point since they all agree that Marinescu is psychopathic. Which means she shares the same instability of the Bardasano genome exposed by the author. Do they think that is a coincidence? This is where your birds of a feather flock together.

Discussing it with mother, it should be mentioned there are varying levels of psychopathy. Bardasano could somehow exhibit less severe forms of the disorder bordering more on sociopathy which mother identifies as psychopathy with a conscience.

It is interesting they all acknowledge Marinescu shares the same instability that is found in the Bardasano genome, but cannot take the next obvious step.



Contrast:

Marinescu's genome with The Marinescu genome.
Bardasano's genome with The Bardasano genome.

That should clear things up. Well, it should.


I made a couple of errors in composing my niece's post. Small errors. Misplacing a quotation mark. And substituting gene where it should be genome. It has been corrected in this post. I left the original untouched for sake of comparison.

Absorbing her post, I think she hits the nail on the head in identifying what has tripped many up. She was flawless in pointing out that everyone inside a particular line may not necessarily suffer from the line's flaws. Which is the logic behind Cherneyshev's musings because Marinescu had not, up to that point, showed the shortcomings of her line, the Bardasano line.

Coming off of the same assembly line, Marinescu is subject to the possibility of the same instability of the Bardasano line, although she personally may not have actually fallen prey to it. She did of course, and in a big way.

Bardasano also didn't necessarily have to fall prey either. She could have developed without suffering from the flaws that are inherent of the line. EXCEPT, that she is automatically exempted from that possible luxury since the line is named after her. Sort of a catch 22.

It reminds me of a company where I was once employed for a short time. It was an injections molding company. They made all sorts of small plastic parts that were used in a number of products throughout the world ranging from toasters, to refrigerators, to cars, to planes, to engines, etc. Every once in a while one of my jobs (Quality Control/Programmer) featured taking random samples of the parts coming off of the assembly line. The actual mold in the injection mold process would oftentimes develop pits which would scratch or damage the parts, called scoring. Some of the parts would turn out free of the inherent defect in the mold. Others wouldn't be so lucky. It is the same with genetic tampering.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: [Spoiler - UH] utube snippet
Post by cthia   » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:52 pm

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JohnRoth wrote:Here's an excerpt from a post RFC made a few years ago on this forum. Note that, for some unknown reason, RFC's posts here are not in the snippets database.

on 2011-06-18 RFC wrote:By this point, the Mesan Alignment's innermost leadership truly have become sociopaths where their great and burning purpose is concerned. Not only that, they have a tunnel vision which is literally centuries old. They've been so focused for so long, for so many GENERATIONS, that they simply can't see what became blindingly obvious to Jack McBryde, which is that if they are in fact right, a fraction of the effort they've spent on building their strategy and the means to accomplish it would have paid for a propaganda/PR campaign that would almost have to have convinced a significant percentage of the human race to agree with them. They wrote that possibility off so long ago that it's not even on their menu of options. And after all this time, the Alignment HAS to defeat Beowulf (and prove its own moral superiority in the process) in order to justify and, if you will, sanctify all of the effort and all of the wealth and all of the destruction of lives which it has poured into its struggle. It's not logical, but let's face it, logic is seldom the most powerful motivating factor where human beings are concerned.


NOTE - this is a single paragraph extracted from a much longer post.

Can you provide a link to the treasure?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: [Spoiler - UH] utube snippet
Post by tlb   » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:40 pm

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cthia wrote: But I doubt the stubbornness gene in the forum is going to acknowledge that the two women are both Bardasanos.

Do allow me to point out that the problem in the Bardasano line has not been dealt with as I digest it. Simply a band-aid has been placed on the wound with the "remedial treatment." Of course I personally wonder exactly what that "remedial treatment" entails. The aforementioned date with a Gaul dishing out shock therapies that I previously suggested, maybe? LOL



I agree with your first statement; because you have no textual evidence that the two women are in anyway the same, either genetically or psychologically.

Second you are denying the text when you say the defects in the Bardasano genome that concerned the planning board have not been dealt with. It seems clear to me that the planning board remediation would involve gene editing and not some crude behavior modification; particularly for a problem that had them consider truncation before ever getting to Isabel.

You seem to think that the genome that results in an individual is common to all (at least, that is how I read your arguments); but the genome that resulted in Bardasano and the genome that resulted in Marinescu are distinct. Just as the Detweiller genome and the Chernyshev genome are different and distinct; not just the resulting individuals. Think of genome as genetic history, which can involve genetic edits to strengthen traits. If they were not distinct, then there would be no sense to the consideration of crossing Detweiller with Bardasano lines. Having distinct lines makes it easier for the Planning board to control and experiment.
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Re: [Spoiler - UH] utube snippet
Post by cthia   » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:07 pm

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote: But I doubt the stubbornness gene in the forum is going to acknowledge that the two women are both Bardasanos.

Do allow me to point out that the problem in the Bardasano line has not been dealt with as I digest it. Simply a band-aid has been placed on the wound with the "remedial treatment." Of course I personally wonder exactly what that "remedial treatment" entails. The aforementioned date with a Gaul dishing out shock therapies that I previously suggested, maybe? LOL



I agree with your first statement; because you have no textual evidence that the two women are in anyway the same, either genetically or psychologically.

Second you are denying the text when you say the defects in the Bardasano genome that concerned the planning board have not been dealt with. It seems clear to me that the planning board remediation would involve gene editing and not some crude behavior modification; particularly for a problem that had them consider truncation before ever getting to Isabel.

You seem to think that the genome that results in an individual is common to all (at least, that is how I read your arguments); but the genome that resulted in Bardasano and the genome that resulted in Marinescu are distinct. Just as the Detweiller genome and the Chernyshev genome are different and distinct; not just the resulting individuals. Think of genome as genetic history, which can involve genetic edits to strengthen traits. If they were not distinct, then there would be no sense to the consideration of crossing Detweiller with Bardasano lines. Having distinct lines makes it easier for the Planning board to control and experiment.


I think you meant to say that you disagree with my first statement?

No, they were not permanently dealt with. Only a band-aid was applied. See the following lines...
Of course, they'd have to be dealt with in the next generation or two if the Bardasano line was going to earn back permanent alpha status within the Alignment, which Isabel understood.


It appears to me that "the next generation or two" is referencing the line down the line that has not been hatched yet. Implying corrections in the manner of refinements applied directly to the genome of the successive lines themselves. The "or two" is because it may take an extra generation of study, testing before the changes manifest itself, for better or for worse. These aren't popsicles coming off of the assembly line, people. Though they are cold as hell and drip with messy shit when heated.

Bardasano is already born. Her genome is a done deal. This is why I said I'd like to know what these "remedial treatments" entail. I'm sure the MAlign, well not completely sure after all these are malignants, have developed more humane methods :o of attitude adjustment to psychotherapy than battery leads connected to various parts of the anatomy.

Wait! Ok, now my fingers aren't crossed...Wait! LOL

I just don't know what that could be beyond 21st century man's shock therapies. I'm not a geneticist.


.
Last edited by cthia on Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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