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[Spoiler - UH] utube snippet

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Re: [Spoiler - UH] utube snippet
Post by JohnRoth   » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:56 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:I thought I remembered the Gauls as being existing Onion members who were "True Believers". Nothing was mentioned about them being specificaly tailored for the job. They were already people inside at some outer level who gravitated to the Fanatic end of the spectrum. It is all about The Cause.
The problem with people who end up becoming fanatical true believers in support a any glorious cause (as they understand it and, in this case, the version that the Alignment has fed a great number of people in various layers of the Onion) is you get the same fanatical obedience to the cause and a willingness to do all sorts of things because you believe they are required, no matter what the cost. Like the one who blew the reactor of the freighter to keep it's couple of Houdini passengers (and himself and any information the captain and crew might have) from the Torch Marines.
Patriot, Martyr, Fanatic.....pick you label and slap it on. It just might be that a number of othewise usefull and otherwise non-critical modifications made to various experimental lines which are (quite unknowingly to themselves as experiments) combine to make a variation of the Skrags without the strength or the quite boosted intelegence but with a certain bias in the direction of fanaticism. Usefull if you want indepent minion guards and enforcers of policy and a certain group set of "moral standards".
All very ugly.


Exactly. That's on page 480 of the same chapter I just cited above: SoV, Chapter 50. Search term is "Genetic Advancement and Uplift League". The search term for the previous cite (which I forgot to include) is "stone-cold psychopath".
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Re: [Spoiler - UH] utube snippet
Post by cthia   » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:48 am

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JohnRoth wrote:
Brigade XO wrote:I thought I remembered the Gauls as being existing Onion members who were "True Believers". Nothing was mentioned about them being specificaly tailored for the job. They were already people inside at some outer level who gravitated to the Fanatic end of the spectrum. It is all about The Cause.
The problem with people who end up becoming fanatical true believers in support a any glorious cause (as they understand it and, in this case, the version that the Alignment has fed a great number of people in various layers of the Onion) is you get the same fanatical obedience to the cause and a willingness to do all sorts of things because you believe they are required, no matter what the cost. Like the one who blew the reactor of the freighter to keep it's couple of Houdini passengers (and himself and any information the captain and crew might have) from the Torch Marines.
Patriot, Martyr, Fanatic.....pick you label and slap it on. It just might be that a number of othewise usefull and otherwise non-critical modifications made to various experimental lines which are (quite unknowingly to themselves as experiments) combine to make a variation of the Skrags without the strength or the quite boosted intelegence but with a certain bias in the direction of fanaticism. Usefull if you want indepent minion guards and enforcers of policy and a certain group set of "moral standards".
All very ugly.


Exactly. That's on page 480 of the same chapter I just cited above: SoV, Chapter 50. Search term is "Genetic Advancement and Uplift League". The search term for the previous cite (which I forgot to include) is "stone-cold psychopath".


I think you are missing my point John.

1. First off, everyone inside of the Onion are bitchy biological botches of psychopathic beings.

2. Marinescu carries the same psychopathic Bardasano gene. It is why Chernyshev despises her. No one likes a bloodthirsty bitch no matter how useful they are. That's why Harrington was hated so vehemently by the Opposition. A bloodthirsty bitch may stick a knife in your back from behind. Heck, Cherneshev is reserving the right to, and anticipating a time when he may have to, gut Marinescu like the malignant pig she is!

At any rate, I supplied what I thought was the appropriate part of the same Ch. 50 of SoV that you are referring to. The remaining portion is as follows...
Marinescu sat back in her chair, her expression thoughtful. GAUL—the Genetic Advancement and Uplift League—had been a part of the Mesan Alignment from the beginning, and its members had proven useful on more than one occasion. It had also tended over the T-centuries to become a sort of collecting basket for the most fanatical supporters of the Detweiler Plan, however, and like fanatics in general, they were perfectly comfortable with…extreme solutions. The Gauls served as the security force of last resort for the inner onion of the Alignment. There weren’t actually all that many of them, but they had a fearsome reputation within the Alignment, which made them useful out of proportion to their actual numbers when the velvet glove seemed unlikely to suffice.

Most Gauls would have been quite willing to strap a nuclear device to their backs and walk into a crowded restaurant to execute one of the “Ballroom” attacks the revised Houdini would require, and Marinescu had already started thinking about ways she could use them. But Chernyshev had a point. It would be difficult to imagine a more…diligent babysitter—and gaoler—than a Gaul. And it would be impossible to imagine one who could be more intimidating to someone who might consider desertion in transit.

“All right,” she said after pondering it for a moment. “That could work.”

“In that case, I think we’re probably done—for now, anyway,” Chernyshev said. “I’d like to see a preliminary draft of your action plan before we talk to Albrecht and Collin about it, but that’s your side of the shop, not mine. For the most part, I’m perfectly content leaving it in your hands.”
“I appreciate that.”

She climbed out of her chair, and those dark eyes flickered again—this time with something which could have been contempt. But that was fine with Chernyshev, up to a point, at least. She was one of those people who confused eagerness to kill with willingness to kill, and it couldn’t hurt to have her dismiss him as someone disinclined to dirty his own hands with what had to be done if he could avoid it. She was unlikely to go so far as to buck his authority, whatever she thought—not while she knew he had Albrecht Detweiler’s full-blooded support—but if the time ever came…

“Samuel will see to it that anything you send him reaches me as quickly as possible,” he said.

“Got it.” She nodded. “Until later, then.”
Chernyshev watched her walk out of his office and frowned thoughtfully as the door closed behind her.
***


The potential for disaster could be worse than I thought. These aren't tailored fanatics. They are self indulgents led by their own rotten minds formulated and fomenting off of the Detweiler rhetoric of lies and deceit.

But then, what happens when one of your fanatics finds out that you're a sham and that they've been lied to? Then they become angry, restless dissenters hell bent on bringing you down with the same ferocity that they exuded while lifting you up. Enemies on steroids. See Jeremy. See Simoes.

See the Church of Scientology and its many dissenters who are numerous. The Detweiler Onion builds on too many lies, on too much deceit and indifference. When you fail to be loyal to those that are loyal to you (Hitler) then you invite disaster of the quite catastrophic kind. You reap the seeds that you sow.

Then the people that have turned against you are not just dissenters, but angry, fanatical dissenters using the same characteristics against you that you once saw as advantageous. They are willing to die bringing you down. With compassion. It becomes their duty.

:o 'Gasp!' The Malign is the Church of Scientology. :o

Unless I'm digesting it incorrectly, Anisimovna was Bardasano's superior.

He’d expected Aldona Anisimovna, who’d taken the lead in the project to destabilize the Manticoran annexation of the Talbott Sector. Instead, he found himself looking at Isabel Bardasano, the wildly tattooed and body-pierced cadet member of the Jessyk Combine’s board who’d clearly been riding backup as Anisimovna’s assistant during their meetings in the Madras Sector.
Underline mine.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: [Spoiler - UH] utube snippet
Post by Eagleeye   » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:12 pm

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cthia wrote:
Unless I'm digesting it incorrectly, Anisimovna was Bardasano's superior.

He’d expected Aldona Anisimovna, who’d taken the lead in the project to destabilize the Manticoran annexation of the Talbott Sector. Instead, he found himself looking at Isabel Bardasano, the wildly tattooed and body-pierced cadet member of the Jessyk Combine’s board who’d clearly been riding backup as Anisimovna’s assistant during their meetings in the Madras Sector.
Underline mine.


Nope. Anisimovna wasn't Bardasanos superior, as far as the Alignment was concerned. Bardasano was part of the inner onion; Anisimovna got part of the onion only because Bardasano recommended her - after the Monica-operation, because A. needed the knowledge of the real stakes the Alignment is playing for to be as effective as possible during their New-Tuscany mission.

Anisimovna was superior to Bardasano only outside the Alignment, because B. was only a "cadet-member" of the Jessyk combine board of directors, while A. was a full member of the Manpower board of directors.
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Re: [Spoiler - UH] utube snippet
Post by JohnRoth   » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:02 pm

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cthia wrote:I think you are missing my point John.

1. First off, everyone inside of the Onion are bitchy biological botches of psychopathic beings.

2. Marinescu carries the same psychopathic Bardasano gene. It is why Chernyshev despises her. No one likes a bloodthirsty bitch no matter how useful they are. That's why Harrington was hated so vehemently by the Opposition. A bloodthirsty bitch may stick a knife in your back from behind. Heck, Cherneshev is reserving the right to, and anticipating a time when he may have to, gut Marinescu like the malignant pig she is!


No, I don't think I'm missing your point. Your point, as I understand it, is that RFC doesn't understand the characters he's created and your oh-so-superior moral sensitivity is completely justified in painting them in considerably different colors than he's sketched in.

Bardisano is never, to my memory, portrayed as a blood-thirsty, out-of-control psychopath. That's why I asked you for text evidence of where she is so portrayed.

What you're doing is running very close to fan-fic, and fan-fic is prohibited on this site.
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Re: [Spoiler - UH] utube snippet
Post by cthia   » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:04 pm

cthia
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JohnRoth wrote:
cthia wrote:I think you are missing my point John.

1. First off, everyone inside of the Onion are bitchy biological botches of psychopathic beings.

2. Marinescu carries the same psychopathic Bardasano gene. It is why Chernyshev despises her. No one likes a bloodthirsty bitch no matter how useful they are. That's why Harrington was hated so vehemently by the Opposition. A bloodthirsty bitch may stick a knife in your back from behind. Heck, Cherneshev is reserving the right to, and anticipating a time when he may have to, gut Marinescu like the malignant pig she is!


No, I don't think I'm missing your point. Your point, as I understand it, is that RFC doesn't understand the characters he's created and your oh-so-superior moral sensitivity is completely justified in painting them in considerably different colors than he's sketched in.

Bardisano is never, to my memory, portrayed as a blood-thirsty, out-of-control psychopath. That's why I asked you for text evidence of where she is so portrayed.

What you're doing is running very close to fan-fic, and fan-fic is prohibited on this site.


Fanfic my ass! Duckk has shown no timidity in culling any of my "too close to fanfic" threads. Which is his job, thank you very much.

For crying out loud. Get the wild hair out of your ass. I thought you had long since cultivated that problem.

If you would bother to read my posts instead of being so quick to draw your overused, rusty Old West weapon, you'd see that I stated that Bardasano has the psychopathic Bardasano gene. I didn't write that, RFC did! The darn gene is named after her for goodness sake! I imagine for a reason and it beats the heck out of me why, perhaps she was the first. But it is so named, and I didn't name it! I'm also free to speculate as everyone else. Lest you are the Spec Cop. :roll:

Marinescu also has the same gene. I didn't quill that either! RFC did. It was Marinescu who I called a bloodthirsty psychopathic bitch, as alluded to by Cherneyshev, which came from higher up -- RFC.

In the future, do cultivate before you participate.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: [Spoiler - UH] utube snippet
Post by JohnRoth   » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:46 pm

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cthia wrote:I think you are missing my point John.

1. First off, everyone inside of the Onion are bitchy biological botches of psychopathic beings.

2. Marinescu carries the same psychopathic Bardasano gene. It is why Chernyshev despises her. No one likes a bloodthirsty bitch no matter how useful they are. That's why Harrington was hated so vehemently by the Opposition. A bloodthirsty bitch may stick a knife in your back from behind. Heck, Cherneshev is reserving the right to, and anticipating a time when he may have to, gut Marinescu like the malignant pig she is!


JohnRoth wrote:No, I don't think I'm missing your point. Your point, as I understand it, is that RFC doesn't understand the characters he's created and your oh-so-superior moral sensitivity is completely justified in painting them in considerably different colors than he's sketched in.

Bardisano is never, to my memory, portrayed as a blood-thirsty, out-of-control psychopath. That's why I asked you for text evidence of where she is so portrayed.

What you're doing is running very close to fan-fic, and fan-fic is prohibited on this site.



cthia wrote:Fanfic my ass! Duckk has shown no timidity in culling any of my "too close to fanfic" threads. Which is his job, thank you very much.

For crying out loud. Get the wild hair out of your ass. I thought you had long since cultivated that problem.

If you would bother to read my posts instead of being so quick to draw your overused, rusty Old West weapon, you'd see that I stated that Bardasano has the psychopathic Bardasano gene. I didn't write that, RFC did! The darn gene is named after her for goodness sake! I imagine for a reason and it beats the heck out of me why, perhaps she was the first. But it is so named, and I didn't name it! I'm also free to speculate as everyone else. Lest you are the Spec Cop. :roll:

Marinescu also has the same gene. I didn't quill that either! RFC did. It was Marinescu who I called a bloodthirsty psychopathic bitch, as alluded to by Cherneyshev, which came from higher up -- RFC.

In the future, do cultivate before you participate.


I asked for textev on that point. I haven't seen it yet.
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Re: [Spoiler - UH] utube snippet
Post by cthia   » Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:33 pm

cthia
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JohnRoth wrote:
cthia wrote:I think you are missing my point John.

1. First off, everyone inside of the Onion are bitchy biological botches of psychopathic beings.

2. Marinescu carries the same psychopathic Bardasano gene. It is why Chernyshev despises her. No one likes a bloodthirsty bitch no matter how useful they are. That's why Harrington was hated so vehemently by the Opposition. A bloodthirsty bitch may stick a knife in your back from behind. Heck, Cherneshev is reserving the right to, and anticipating a time when he may have to, gut Marinescu like the malignant pig she is!


JohnRoth wrote:No, I don't think I'm missing your point. Your point, as I understand it, is that RFC doesn't understand the characters he's created and your oh-so-superior moral sensitivity is completely justified in painting them in considerably different colors than he's sketched in.

Bardisano is never, to my memory, portrayed as a blood-thirsty, out-of-control psychopath. That's why I asked you for text evidence of where she is so portrayed.

What you're doing is running very close to fan-fic, and fan-fic is prohibited on this site.



cthia wrote:Fanfic my ass! Duckk has shown no timidity in culling any of my "too close to fanfic" threads. Which is his job, thank you very much.

For crying out loud. Get the wild hair out of your ass. I thought you had long since cultivated that problem.

If you would bother to read my posts instead of being so quick to draw your overused, rusty Old West weapon, you'd see that I stated that Bardasano has the psychopathic Bardasano gene. I didn't write that, RFC did! The darn gene is named after her for goodness sake! I imagine for a reason and it beats the heck out of me why, perhaps she was the first. But it is so named, and I didn't name it! I'm also free to speculate as everyone else. Lest you are the Spec Cop. :roll:

Marinescu also has the same gene. I didn't quill that either! RFC did. It was Marinescu who I called a bloodthirsty psychopathic bitch, as alluded to by Cherneyshev, which came from higher up -- RFC.

In the future, do cultivate before you participate.


I asked for textev on that point. I haven't seen it yet.


JohnRoth wrote:
cthia wrote:I think you are missing my point John.

1. First off, everyone inside of the Onion are bitchy biological botches of psychopathic beings.

2. Marinescu carries the same psychopathic Bardasano gene. It is why Chernyshev despises her. No one likes a bloodthirsty bitch no matter how useful they are. That's why Harrington was hated so vehemently by the Opposition. A bloodthirsty bitch may stick a knife in your back from behind. Heck, Cherneshev is reserving the right to, and anticipating a time when he may have to, gut Marinescu like the malignant pig she is!


JohnRoth wrote:No, I don't think I'm missing your point. Your point, as I understand it, is that RFC doesn't understand the characters he's created and your oh-so-superior moral sensitivity is completely justified in painting them in considerably different colors than he's sketched in.

Bardisano is never, to my memory, portrayed as a blood-thirsty, out-of-control psychopath. That's why I asked you for text evidence of where she is so portrayed.

What you're doing is running very close to fan-fic, and fan-fic is prohibited on this site.



cthia wrote:Fanfic my ass! Duckk has shown no timidity in culling any of my "too close to fanfic" threads. Which is his job, thank you very much.

For crying out loud. Get the wild hair out of your ass. I thought you had long since cultivated that problem.

If you would bother to read my posts instead of being so quick to draw your overused, rusty Old West weapon, you'd see that I stated that Bardasano has the psychopathic Bardasano gene. I didn't write that, RFC did! The darn gene is named after her for goodness sake! I imagine for a reason and it beats the heck out of me why, perhaps she was the first. But it is so named, and I didn't name it! I'm also free to speculate as everyone else. Lest you are the Spec Cop. :roll:

Marinescu also has the same gene. I didn't quill that either! RFC did. It was Marinescu who I called a bloodthirsty psychopathic bitch, as alluded to by Cherneyshev, which came from higher up -- RFC.

In the future, do cultivate before you participate.


I asked for textev on that point. I haven't seen it yet.


Then you have your eyes closed, and your mind.

*sigh*

Yes, RFC has penned that the Bardasano genome has instabilities, hence unstable.

He, as in RFC, then proceeds to flesh out this instability with this penned passage, by way of Chernyshev who has his expectations of Marinescu (because of the same Bardasano genome), confirmed...


So far as Chernyshev was aware, on the other hand, there was no known history of instability in Marinescu’s genome…which hadn't prevented Janice from being—in his considered opinion—a stone-cold psychopath.


What do you think the instability is alluding to, to the tune of possibly culling it??? NOT simply a psychopath. A stone-cold psychopath! I won't discuss this with you anymore. Beat your head up against the troll wall all you want. I'm done.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: [Spoiler - UH] utube snippet
Post by JohnRoth   » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:51 pm

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cthia wrote:I think you are missing my point John.

1. First off, everyone inside of the Onion are bitchy biological botches of psychopathic beings.

2. Marinescu carries the same psychopathic Bardasano gene. It is why Chernyshev despises her. No one likes a bloodthirsty bitch no matter how useful they are. That's why Harrington was hated so vehemently by the Opposition. A bloodthirsty bitch may stick a knife in your back from behind. Heck, Cherneshev is reserving the right to, and anticipating a time when he may have to, gut Marinescu like the malignant pig she is!


JohnRoth wrote:No, I don't think I'm missing your point. Your point, as I understand it, is that RFC doesn't understand the characters he's created and your oh-so-superior moral sensitivity is completely justified in painting them in considerably different colors than he's sketched in.

Bardisano is never, to my memory, portrayed as a blood-thirsty, out-of-control psychopath. That's why I asked you for text evidence of where she is so portrayed.

What you're doing is running very close to fan-fic, and fan-fic is prohibited on this site.



cthia wrote:Fanfic my ass! Duckk has shown no timidity in culling any of my "too close to fanfic" threads. Which is his job, thank you very much.

For crying out loud. Get the wild hair out of your ass. I thought you had long since cultivated that problem.

If you would bother to read my posts instead of being so quick to draw your overused, rusty Old West weapon, you'd see that I stated that Bardasano has the psychopathic Bardasano gene. I didn't write that, RFC did! The darn gene is named after her for goodness sake! I imagine for a reason and it beats the heck out of me why, perhaps she was the first. But it is so named, and I didn't name it! I'm also free to speculate as everyone else. Lest you are the Spec Cop. :roll:

Marinescu also has the same gene. I didn't quill that either! RFC did. It was Marinescu who I called a bloodthirsty psychopathic bitch, as alluded to by Cherneyshev, which came from higher up -- RFC.

In the future, do cultivate before you participate.


JohnRoth wrote:I asked for textev on that point. I haven't seen it yet.


cthia wrote:Then you have your eyes closed, and your mind.

*sigh*

Yes, RFC has penned that the Bardasano genome has instabilities, hence unstable.

He, as in RFC, then proceeds to flesh out this instability with this penned passage, by way of Chernyshev who has his expectations of Marinescu (because of the same Bardasano genome), confirmed...


So far as Chernyshev was aware, on the other hand, there was no known history of instability in Marinescu’s genome…which hadn't prevented Janice from being—in his considered opinion—a stone-cold psychopath.


What do you think the instability is alluding to, to the tune of possibly culling it??? NOT simply a psychopath. A stone-cold psychopath! I won't discuss this with you anymore. Beat your head up against the troll wall all you want. I'm done.



You may be done, but I'm not. As far as I'm concerned, none of what you quote supports your contentions. Let's take it piece by piece.

1. RFC indeed says the Bardisano genome shows instabilities that are serious enough that they've considered culling the genome. In fact, he says that in several places.

What is the nature of the instabilities? I don't remember him ever saying. They could be the habit of dressing in wolf-skins and going out to bay at the moon during full moons. They could be the habit of giving the finger to social convention by, oh, say, tattoos and piercings - which he has also mentioned several times. The fact is, without further input, we simply don't know the nature of the instabilities. It could well be that he doesn't know either - although without further input I'd go with the tats and piercings.

2. I've never seen anything that says the instabilities are regarded as important enough to be given a formal name.

3. The paragraph you quote says specifically that the Marinescue genome shows NO, and let me repeat that, NO, instabilities. No instabilities means no instabilities, let alone the same ones as the Bardisino lineage, whether or not it has a formal name.

4. Given the above, the fact that Rufino C. thinks Marinsecue is a stone-cold psychopath has absolutely no bearing on whether Bardisino is one.

I'd still like to see some text-ev that contradicts the above.
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Re: [Spoiler - UH] utube snippet
Post by cthia   » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:06 pm

cthia
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Jiminy Crickets! Give up the ghost man! It is clear even if you take it out of context. Taken in context however, it becomes crystal. She has a lackadaisical attitude at the level of killing she has to perform. Which. is. psy-cho-pa-thic!

Crystal clear context...
1. She’d been one of the Mesan Alignment’s most effective “wet work” specialists for decades, because she was smart, she was tough, she was quick-thinking…and she really, really liked killing people. If she hadn’t been so far inside the onion, she’d have fitted in perfectly with Manpower, although her tendency to kill people probably would have cut into even Manpower’s profit margin. :lol: He hadn’t doubted for a moment that she’d actually like the notion of setting off nuclear devices in urban settings.

2. Of course I do, and so does Albrecht. If you see a better option, I’m sure he’d be delighted to hear it.”

“It’s going to be even messier from the get-go than our existing Houdini plans ever envisioned,” she continued, ignoring his last sentence. “I mean a lot messier, Rufino. Right off the top of my head, I’d be astonished if the collateral damage doesn’t at least double even before we start tying off those loose ends.”

“I know,” he sighed. The difference between them, he thought, was that for Marinescu that was simply a tactical problem, not a moral one.

3. She was one of those people who confused eagerness to kill with willingness to kill,


Can't get any more psychopathic than that. Well, she can. And she (Marinescu not Bardasano) does, with the emotionless killings.

She's so psychopathic it's humorous. Your stubbornness on this matter is also, humorous. Give up the ghost man!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: [Spoiler - UH] utube snippet
Post by cthia   » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:20 pm

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JohnRoth wrote:3. The paragraph you quote says specifically that the Marinescue genome shows NO, and let me repeat that, NO, instabilities. No instabilities means no instabilities, let alone the same ones as the Bardisino lineage, whether or not it has a formal name.


NO. It does NOT, I repeat DOES NOT say that. It says that there is no known history, as far as he knows. Besides, I can list a plethora of psychopathic murderers who also had no known history of psychopathic killings until bodies began to surface.

Jeffrey Dahmer also didn't have a history until he was discovered with bodies in his freezer. BECAUSE HE WAS EATING THEM! Another stone-cold psychopathic killer. He was so stone-cold he used a freezer.

It seems obvious to me that RFC has put a name to it now -- it's called fleshing it out!


Besides, as I stated upstream, when would the defect have had time to manifest itself hiding out for so long behind the inside of the Onion. She has certainly hit the ground running, err killing now.

Marinescu is certainly establishing a history now. She doesn't have to hide it in the closet or a freezer either. She's given full carte blanche, and she's loving every minute of it!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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