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Info found on Mesa

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Re: Info found on Mesa
Post by quite possibly a cat   » Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:36 pm

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I'm sure a treecat would find her answer evasive, but reporters are supposed to keep there own opinions out of it. Reporters are people too and have opinions like anyone else. So evasiveness could just as easily come from a reporter who thinks that the Malign conspiracy is a batshit insane propaganda piece being used by mass murdering psychopaths to excuse their crimes.

Also, I'm of the opinion giving O'Hanrahan an interview would be a terrible idea. The experience disparity is staggering. O'Hanrahan has a lot of experience with uncovering the truth and cutting through lies. Gold Peak has no experience with covering up the truth and crafting ironclad lies.

n7axw wrote:
Anton was not working for, nor was he responsible to Manticore as an agent for his mission. His commitment at the time was to Torch and his mission was to try to establish responsibility for the attack on Queen Berry on Torch.
This is true. If Manticore and Haven are willing to throw Anton and Victor under the bus, AND Anton and Victor are willing to go along with it Manticore can maybe escape blame. Still, you'll either need to extradite them or execute them yourselves. Or set a precedent that wanton murder of civilians is okay if you launder it through some local crazy.

I think'd they would have better luck not trying to act claim that Anton and Victor weren't really working for Manticore and Haven. Too many questions: why didn't Victor get fired after going AWOL? Why didn't Honor arrest Anton for treason and capture the enemy, Victor? Etc. Also Victor and Anton won't agree to anything that blames Torch

Still some people are going to ask why didn't Manticore arrest Anton and Victor after debriefing them and learning about Green Pines? Obviously, Manticore never asked Anton if he actually was involved, but they damn well should have.
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Re: Info found on Mesa
Post by ldwechsler   » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:00 pm

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quite possibly a cat wrote:I'm sure a treecat would find her answer evasive, but reporters are supposed to keep there own opinions out of it. Reporters are people too and have opinions like anyone else. So evasiveness could just as easily come from a reporter who thinks that the Malign conspiracy is a batshit insane propaganda piece being used by mass murdering psychopaths to excuse their crimes.

Also, I'm of the opinion giving O'Hanrahan an interview would be a terrible idea. The experience disparity is staggering. O'Hanrahan has a lot of experience with uncovering the truth and cutting through lies. Gold Peak has no experience with covering up the truth and crafting ironclad lies.

n7axw wrote:
Anton was not working for, nor was he responsible to Manticore as an agent for his mission. His commitment at the time was to Torch and his mission was to try to establish responsibility for the attack on Queen Berry on Torch.
This is true. If Manticore and Haven are willing to throw Anton and Victor under the bus, AND Anton and Victor are willing to go along with it Manticore can maybe escape blame. Still, you'll either need to extradite them or execute them yourselves. Or set a precedent that wanton murder of civilians is okay if you launder it through some local crazy.

I think'd they would have better luck not trying to act claim that Anton and Victor weren't really working for Manticore and Haven. Too many questions: why didn't Victor get fired after going AWOL? Why didn't Honor arrest Anton for treason and capture the enemy, Victor? Etc. Also Victor and Anton won't agree to anything that blames Torch

Still some people are going to ask why didn't Manticore arrest Anton and Victor after debriefing them and learning about Green Pines? Obviously, Manticore never asked Anton if he actually was involved, but they damn well should have.


What would they be arrested for? They did not set off the bombs. Please read the books. Yes, they went in as spies. Why would Manticore and Haven arrest them for that?

Yes, they retrieved Simoes. He was willing to go.

The rest of the damage was caused by people who lived on Mesa. McBride was a security man who worked for the government. As for the seccie, maybe he would not have gone off as he did had the government treated him better.

But neither man had ANYTHING at all to do with the bombs. They were helped by them, sure. But they did not set them off.

Not to mention that Manticore and Haven had no diplomatic relations with Mesa to being with.

That is why no one was interested in prosecuting them at all.
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Re: Info found on Mesa
Post by kzt   » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:23 pm

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I hand you, a person with obvious metal issues, a gallon of gas and tell you to burn down an empty apartment complex. Instead you burn down a kindergarten with 60 kids in it.

Do you really think the DA is going to say I had no responsibility for the murder and instead it belongs to the gas station attendant?
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Re: Info found on Mesa
Post by quite possibly a cat   » Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:17 pm

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Back to info found on Mesa: So I my guess is they'll basically find nothing of value.

Sure, Manpower will probably have a nice list of customers and records of sales, but if they haven't added little bits of lies to target political opponents of Mesan agents they aren't doing their job. :twisted:


Oh and a worse case scenario for what they find:
If the Malign is evil enough Manticore might find documents detailing a secret Mesan bioweapon. One that just seems like a minor cold, letting you spread it for months, and then when symptoms appear its far too late. Mesans only have a tiny chance of dying to it due to some quirk of Mesan genetic engineering. Oh and all the vials of the virus are missing!

Luckily there is also a vaccine that protects against the horrible bioweapon. Mesa stockpiled some and they have the directions to make more, and the Mesan elite is DEMANDING they get the stockpiled doses. Then you stir up the Manty population. The Manties will demand the vaccine and Manticore will vaccinate their people, over the complaints of the Mesans who demanding they get all the doses first.

Now and this is the key part, the vaccine needs to start some horrible downhill spiral that only becomes symptomatic far too late to stop. :twisted: And that needs to be non-obvious until you actually see it happen.

P.S. Obviously the "vaccine" wouldn't be a typical pre-disporia 21st century style one. But something that protects you from the plague.
Last edited by quite possibly a cat on Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Info found on Mesa
Post by Weird Harold   » Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:19 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:What would they be arrested for? They did not set off the bombs. Please read the books. Yes, they went in as spies. Why would Manticore and Haven arrest them for that?


Actually, one of the three bombs was set off by Anton along with bogus surveillance footage to "prove" they died attempting to escape. That was the whole reason Anton askedd the local for "explosives" and got two "commercial nukes" which he had to disable the tracking devices on.

The second was supposed to go somewhere else as a diversion for their escape, but the aircar delivering it was damaged by Jack McBride's destruction of the Gamma Center and the "crazy seccie" delivering it diverted to Green Pines park.

Anton Zilwiki could be charged with accessory before and after the fact, Accessory to Murder, Premeditated Murder (as he knew that there were homeless seccies in the tower he blew up,) and war crimes (for the civilian deaths and lack of military targets.)

Victor could also be charged as an accessory to all of Anton's crimes, as could Vanna, Simoes, and the restaurant owner and her daughter.

The entire crew of the Howle Sowle could probably also be charged as accessories after the fact, because they enabled Anton to escape.

However, nothing is going to be done because the Seccie Uprising has succeeded thanks to Adm Gold Peak's timely arrival. Prosecuting "Heroes of the Revolution" just isn't done.
.
.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Info found on Mesa
Post by jdtinIA   » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:29 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:What would they be arrested for? They did not set off the bombs. Please read the books. Yes, they went in as spies. Why would Manticore and Haven arrest them for that?


Actually, one of the three bombs was set off by Anton along with bogus surveillance footage to "prove" they died attempting to escape. That was the whole reason Anton askedd the local for "explosives" and got two "commercial nukes" which he had to disable the tracking devices on.

The second was supposed to go somewhere else as a diversion for their escape, but the aircar delivering it was damaged by Jack McBride's destruction of the Gamma Center and the "crazy seccie" delivering it diverted to Green Pines park.

Anton Zilwiki could be charged with accessory before and after the fact, Accessory to Murder, Premeditated Murder (as he knew that there were homeless seccies in the tower he blew up,) and war crimes (for the civilian deaths and lack of military targets.)

Victor could also be charged as an accessory to all of Anton's crimes, as could Vanna, Simoes, and the restaurant owner and her daughter.

The entire crew of the Howle Sowle could probably also be charged as accessories after the fact, because they enabled Anton to escape.

However, nothing is going to be done because the Seccie Uprising has succeeded thanks to Adm Gold Peak's timely arrival. Prosecuting "Heroes of the Revolution" just isn't done.



Anton's defense is: It was an act of war, carried out by an agent of Torch.
Torch has declared war on Mesa. There is no textev that it is a limited war. Anything or anyone one Mesa is a target.

Therefore no crime was commited.
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Re: Info found on Mesa
Post by kzt   » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:45 pm

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jdtinIA wrote:Anton's defense is: It was an act of war, carried out by an agent of Torch.
Torch has declared war on Mesa. There is no textev that it is a limited war. Anything or anyone one Mesa is a target.

Therefore no crime was commited.

Really?

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... ngton/31/0

The Eridani Edict has some points in common with the rule of the "practicable breach." Essentially, the Eridani Edict says that no star nation may engage in the wholesale and wanton slaughter of civilian populations using any weapon of mass destruction. The actual language of the edict is clearly oriented towards nuclear or kinetic strikes, but it applies more to the intent and purpose of the weapon than to its actual characteristics, except inasmuch as those characteristics may define the… controlability of its area of effect.

Under existing interstellar law, the phrase "wholesale and wanton slaughter" has a very specific meaning.

"Wholesale" means civilian casualties which go beyond the collateral damage associated with legitimate military operations as defined under the "laws of war" applicable to the Honorverse. "Wanton" means that those casualties were inflicted deliberately, or that prudent precautions to prevent them from happening were not taken. The Eridani Edict does not prohibit the use of "weapons of mass destruction" against inhabited planets. What it does do is to establish the parameters under which those weapons may be used.

First, they may only be used by an attacker who controls near-planet space. That is, a raiding squadron which dashes in, passes within weapons range of the planet, and then lopes off again before a relief force can turn up and kick its butt, cannot pop off a few missiles at the planet as it passes without violating the Edict. Before it can fire at targets on the planetary surface, it must have established that the planet has no immediate prospect of relief, and that they (the attackers) are in a position to send down assault forces if they choose to do so. At that point, the attackers are entitled to summon the planet to surrender upon pain of bombardment from space. If the defenders choose not to surrender, then the attackers are justified in using bombardment to take out specific military targets rather than sending their assault forces down to be slaughtered trying to take them with infantry or armored units in an effort to prevent civilian casualties.

The military targets which are legitimate candidates for bombardment are also clearly understood to fall into specifically limited categories. They may be command-and-control nodes, such as planetary military and/or political command structures and facilities. They may be tactical weapons positions or troop concentrations. They may be civilian communications facilities which have military applications. However, all of them must have immediate, tactical applications and capabilities.

What this means is that a planetary defense missile battery, wherever located, is a legitimate target. The defenders can't stick the missiles in the middle of Central Park in New York City in order to protect them against attack under the terms of the Eridani Edict. If there are weapons there, then they are legitimate targets for attack. By the same token, if two armored divisions dig in to defend New York City and their commander refuses to surrender, then they become a legitimate target. The White House in Washington, DC, would be a legitimate target, as would the Pentagon, because of their command-and-control functions. A civilian powerplant being used to provide electricity to weapons systems, or sensors, or electronic warfare platforms, would also be a legitimate target. However, a factory which produced missiles but had no capacity to fire them, would not be a legitimate target because it poses no immediate tactical threat to the fleet in orbit around the planet or to the assault troops which it might land to take possession of the factory. Similarly, an orbital bombardment attack on the basic economic or industrial infrastructure of the planet would not be justifiable under the terms of the Edict, nor would a "demonstration strike" on a population center intended to terrify the rest of the planetary population into submission.

Note that to a very great extent, the exact nature of the weapon used is not really relevant. Certain weapons, because of the impossibility of reliably limiting their areas of effect, are more likely to be considered a violation of the Edict, of course. A neurotoxin used against a specific, legitimate target (like, say, a palace where the enemy star nation's monarch and top military commander might be hanging out), would not be considered a violation of the Edict unless it was likely to spread throughout a surrounding city, or something of the sort, and inflict truly massive casualties. The use of a biological weapon -- say, anthrax or the Ebola virus -- very probably would be considered a violation of the Edict because it would probably spread far beyond the immediate, legitimate military target to the civilian population at large. Put another way, a biological or chemical weapon [attack] on the White House which took out everything between M Street to the north, Marine Avenue to the south, the Potomac River Freeway to the west, and 9th Street to the east, would not constitute a violation of the Eridani Edict, but the use of a weapon which spread beyond that area to the city at large, and possibly beyond that to Baltimore, Fredericksburg, etc., would.
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Re: Info found on Mesa
Post by ldwechsler   » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:24 pm

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kzt wrote:
jdtinIA wrote:Anton's defense is: It was an act of war, carried out by an agent of Torch.
Torch has declared war on Mesa. There is no textev that it is a limited war. Anything or anyone one Mesa is a target.

Therefore no crime was commited.

Really?

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... ngton/31/0

The Eridani Edict has some points in common with the rule of the "practicable breach." Essentially, the Eridani Edict says that no star nation may engage in the wholesale and wanton slaughter of civilian populations using any weapon of mass destruction. The actual language of the edict is clearly oriented towards nuclear or kinetic strikes, but it applies more to the intent and purpose of the weapon than to its actual characteristics, except inasmuch as those characteristics may define the… controlability of its area of effect.

Under existing interstellar law, the phrase "wholesale and wanton slaughter" has a very specific meaning.

"Wholesale" means civilian casualties which go beyond the collateral damage associated with legitimate military operations as defined under the "laws of war" applicable to the Honorverse. "Wanton" means that those casualties were inflicted deliberately, or that prudent precautions to prevent them from happening were not taken. The Eridani Edict does not prohibit the use of "weapons of mass destruction" against inhabited planets. What it does do is to establish the parameters under which those weapons may be used.

First, they may only be used by an attacker who controls near-planet space. That is, a raiding squadron which dashes in, passes within weapons range of the planet, and then lopes off again before a relief force can turn up and kick its butt, cannot pop off a few missiles at the planet as it passes without violating the Edict. Before it can fire at targets on the planetary surface, it must have established that the planet has no immediate prospect of relief, and that they (the attackers) are in a position to send down assault forces if they choose to do so. At that point, the attackers are entitled to summon the planet to surrender upon pain of bombardment from space. If the defenders choose not to surrender, then the attackers are justified in using bombardment to take out specific military targets rather than sending their assault forces down to be slaughtered trying to take them with infantry or armored units in an effort to prevent civilian casualties.

The military targets which are legitimate candidates for bombardment are also clearly understood to fall into specifically limited categories. They may be command-and-control nodes, such as planetary military and/or political command structures and facilities. They may be tactical weapons positions or troop concentrations. They may be civilian communications facilities which have military applications. However, all of them must have immediate, tactical applications and capabilities.

What this means is that a planetary defense missile battery, wherever located, is a legitimate target. The defenders can't stick the missiles in the middle of Central Park in New York City in order to protect them against attack under the terms of the Eridani Edict. If there are weapons there, then they are legitimate targets for attack. By the same token, if two armored divisions dig in to defend New York City and their commander refuses to surrender, then they become a legitimate target. The White House in Washington, DC, would be a legitimate target, as would the Pentagon, because of their command-and-control functions. A civilian powerplant being used to provide electricity to weapons systems, or sensors, or electronic warfare platforms, would also be a legitimate target. However, a factory which produced missiles but had no capacity to fire them, would not be a legitimate target because it poses no immediate tactical threat to the fleet in orbit around the planet or to the assault troops which it might land to take possession of the factory. Similarly, an orbital bombardment attack on the basic economic or industrial infrastructure of the planet would not be justifiable under the terms of the Edict, nor would a "demonstration strike" on a population center intended to terrify the rest of the planetary population into submission.

Note that to a very great extent, the exact nature of the weapon used is not really relevant. Certain weapons, because of the impossibility of reliably limiting their areas of effect, are more likely to be considered a violation of the Edict, of course. A neurotoxin used against a specific, legitimate target (like, say, a palace where the enemy star nation's monarch and top military commander might be hanging out), would not be considered a violation of the Edict unless it was likely to spread throughout a surrounding city, or something of the sort, and inflict truly massive casualties. The use of a biological weapon -- say, anthrax or the Ebola virus -- very probably would be considered a violation of the Edict because it would probably spread far beyond the immediate, legitimate military target to the civilian population at large. Put another way, a biological or chemical weapon [attack] on the White House which took out everything between M Street to the north, Marine Avenue to the south, the Potomac River Freeway to the west, and 9th Street to the east, would not constitute a violation of the Eridani Edict, but the use of a weapon which spread beyond that area to the city at large, and possibly beyond that to Baltimore, Fredericksburg, etc., would.



Yet thousands died in revolts all through the Verge. As usual, those in power decide what is a violation or not.

Had Manticore done what the OFS fleet did, it would probably be considered a violation. But in Solarian courts, wiping out most of the population by their own people is no biggie.
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Re: Info found on Mesa
Post by ncwolf   » Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:01 am

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quite possibly a cat wrote:Back to info found on Mesa: So I my guess is they'll basically find nothing of value.

Sure, Manpower will probably have a nice list of customers and records of sales, but if they haven't added little bits of lies to target political opponents of Mesan agents they aren't doing their job. :twisted:


Well, there probably (>98%) won't be any smoking guns nor "take it to court" type evidence laying around. Detweiler's last ditch nukes plus all the rest of Houdini took care of that. But, there are holes that analysts of Zilwicki's caliber, few though they be, could pull out of the noise. He could see from the ship movements that something was going on; he's back on Manticore, or he was as of some time after Mike Henke's message arrived because he saw it from Harrington's copy. So Admiral Gold Peak won't get that information for quite some time (except for what Victor Cachat and Thandi Palane know).

What else is there? Well, Mike Henke knows that she didn't launch nukes at the planet, nor KEWs either (and there's enough radiation---well above background, for certain---for anyone to be able to tell, a nuke's thermal pulse, etc that these were nukes, in the case of the Detweiler vacation home a ridiculously large nuke. Kinetic energy weapon effects were discussed in one of the Shadow books (when Terakov KEWed a building) and when the Mesa forces KEWed a building to suppress the seccies.

And why would anyone nuke a supposedly uninhabited wilderness area, as the Detweiler vacation home was? Answer that question, and the rest could just unravel like an untied shoelace.

No, it will be very difficult for a neutral observer to be convinced that Manticore didn't just nuke Mesa. However, Manticore probably has enough information to know someone was trying to hide something on Mesa, especially if Zilwicki's ship movement analysis is included---come to think of it, Victor and Thandi Palane probably both have the basic idea that that is why Zilwicki knew he had to go get help immediately.
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Re: Info found on Mesa
Post by kzt   » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:59 am

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ldwechsler wrote:Yet thousands died in revolts all through the Verge. As usual, those in power decide what is a violation or not.

Had Manticore done what the OFS fleet did, it would probably be considered a violation. But in Solarian courts, wiping out most of the population by their own people is no biggie.

Note the bit about star nations. SL members are very protective of their rights and privileges, which include internal policing using force perhaps a bit over enthusiastically. You will note how their didn’t seem to ever be any press around anyhow, despite the legality. It might just get reported anyhow, and that might look bad. But luckily the vast mass of SL news media is as well trained as ours in in not reporting inconvenient truths that peons don’t deserve to know.

But Torch does in fact claim to be a star nation last I checked. Which means that if they claim the attack the SL is automatically at war with them. No vote, just automatic declaration of war per the SL constitution. Hmm, that might be mighty convenient for the SLN, since that allows them to conscript all those SDFs. Plus whatever the various war power rules can be twisted to allow.

It also would be sort of bad PR for torch. To put it mildly.
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