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Info found on Mesa

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Re: Info found on Mesa
Post by ldwechsler   » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:52 pm

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quite possibly a cat wrote:Manticore has a track record of working with the Ballroom and Ballroom's co. conspirators. While that hasn't been made widely public yet, it could be. And while we can quibble about the word "supply" Anton DID remove the security from the Green Pines nuke.

Manticore basically have several awful options:

1) Deny everything. This is awful because if anyone DOES get proof Manticore was behind any of the nukes, they've destroyed any credibility they had on the issue.

2) Ignore all questions. This is awful because there are legitimate questions, so refusing to deny it makes you look kind of guilty.

3a) Go with the truth. This is awful because the truth is they've been conspiring with the Ballroom, helping homegrown Mesan terrorists, removed the security on the Green Pines nuke and nuked Mesa. Unfortunately, this is a confession to mass murder.

3b) Go with the truth and promptly throw Torch under the bus. Say Victor and Anton were working for Torch. Hell, the CIC of the Torch military is on Mesa! At first glance this clears Manticore of all blame.

The main problem here is that Victor and co. might respond by throwing Haven and Manticore under the bus. "Why yes, we were behind Green Pines. We had very specific orders from the Queen and President. We also helped pick the targets for the orbital bombardment. The important thing to remember is that Berry and Thandi had no knowledge of our horrible atrocities." This is particularly bad because people tend to believe confessions for some ghastly reason.

Back to the main topic: If I was the Malign I would leave a trail of evidence pointing back to all of my worst enemies.

Beowulf? A bunch of documents showing how Beowulf was helping you come up with new gene mods. The slaves would try them, and if they worked out Beowulf could "rescue" the slaves, and then use those fancy genes for their "eugenics" program, while claiming they weren't inventing new synthetic genes. This would be particularly damning if you DID tip Beowulf off to selected slave ships, so you could spread superior Mesan genes to the galaxy!

Political opponents of your infiltrators? They were working with Mesa and involved in horrible criminality. Bonus points if you had pretend slave Gamma Lines seduce them, so you can put them with a "slave" that they "purchased".

Manticore? Working with the Ballroom. There is extensively documented proof. Bonus points for having it all be true and at least some be verifiable.


The truth also goes a long way. Anton and Victor did not bring in the nukes. And nukes have signatures in terms of where they are from. That could be interesting.

Second, there is not a real lot of sympathy for Mesa anywhere in terms of the public. A lot of key people quietly supported it but it's sort of hard to publicly explain why you support genetic slavery et al.

And although Cathy Montaigne does work with the Ballroom it was not considered respectable. Note that Queen Elizabeth had never met Jeremy X until Cauldron of Ghosts.

The one person claiming that Manticore and Haven ships are firing on Mesa is O'Hanrahan. Questioning her with a treecat present could be very interesting. Remember that she knows far more about the Onion than most.
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Re: Info found on Mesa
Post by quite possibly a cat   » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:19 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:The truth also goes a long way. Anton and Victor did not bring in the nukes. And nukes have signatures in terms of where they are from. That could be interesting.
They just detonated a nuke, and broke the security on another so terrorists could detonate. The sort of terrorists who massacre children. The truth goes a long way to damning Manticore.
ldwechsler wrote:Second, there is not a real lot of sympathy for Mesa anywhere in terms of the public. A lot of key people quietly supported it but it's sort of hard to publicly explain why you support genetic slavery et al.
There is plenty of support for children. The Green Pines Massacre was in a park with children. Also I'm guessing plenty of genetic slaves got incinerated in the final massacre.
ldwechsler wrote:And although Cathy Montaigne does work with the Ballroom it was not considered respectable. Note that Queen Elizabeth had never met Jeremy X until Cauldron of Ghosts.
Its more than "not respectable", the Ballroom is a terrorist organization according the the Manticorian government.

Also, Honor worked with them before the first book. Cathy is a government official and friend of the Queen.

The one person claiming that Manticore and Haven ships are firing on Mesa is O'Hanrahan.
She's not claiming that. She's stating facts. The facts just happen to put Manticore in the orbit when the nukes went off.
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Re: Info found on Mesa
Post by Joat42   » Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:37 am

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ldwechsler wrote:..snip..
The truth also goes a long way. Anton and Victor did not bring in the nukes. And nukes have signatures in terms of where they are from. That could be interesting.

The nukes are actually clean fusion devices which doesn't leave much of radiological signature.

ldwechsler wrote:..snip..
The one person claiming that Manticore and Haven ships are firing on Mesa is O'Hanrahan. Questioning her with a treecat present could be very interesting. Remember that she knows far more about the Onion than most.

That hinges on her knowing about Houdini and the scorched earth tactics which I doubt. And she didn't claim that, she said it looked like it was Manticore, not that it was.

Any "interrogation" of O'Hanrahan will be inconclusive since she doesn't have all the facts. She will know that the MA is involved in some way but that doesn't equate to factual knowledge which can be corroborated by a tree-cat.

Further, at this point there is no reason for interrogating here at all. Most likely she will actively press Henke for an interview about the nukes.

---
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Re: Info found on Mesa
Post by Maldorian   » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:15 am

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The Alignment nukes have one big error: The Targets!

Children? Scientists ? Why have the security forces survive? Their Barracs should be the main target for any terrorist. Look at the real world: A lot of terrorist choose police stations and military checkpoints or Barracs as targets. Yes, they also kill civilians, but that no Barracs on Mesa was destroyed is suspicious.
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Re: Info found on Mesa
Post by JohnRoth   » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:14 am

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Joat42 wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:..snip..
The one person claiming that Manticore and Haven ships are firing on Mesa is O'Hanrahan. Questioning her with a treecat present could be very interesting. Remember that she knows far more about the Onion than most.


That hinges on her knowing about Houdini and the scorched earth tactics which I doubt. And she didn't claim that, she said it looked like it was Manticore, not that it was.

Any "interrogation" of O'Hanrahan will be inconclusive since she doesn't have all the facts. She will know that the MA is involved in some way but that doesn't equate to factual knowledge which can be corroborated by a tree-cat.


Actually, she does know. She's not only a Mesan Alpha, but she's far enough inside the Onion to know the Alignment's eventual purpose, and she knows the basic outline of what's going on and the reason she was called to Mesa at this time.

It's spelled out in detail in CoG, Chapter 41. pages 333-337 (hardcover). If you're looking at the electronic edition, find "Like the minor fact that she was a Mesan alpha-line" and go on to the end of the scene.
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Re: Info found on Mesa
Post by quite possibly a cat   » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:10 am

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I don't recall anything about her knowing about the scorched earth tactics or "terrorism" ahead of time. She was just given a location to stay at so she didn't get caught in the attacks.

I suppose Gold Peak could give her an interview and then attempt to interrogate her on the public interview. Leaving aside the question of why they would do that to a random reporter, it would only exacerbate Manticore's PR problem.

Also I wonder about the reaction in Manticore if its learned that Manticore was behind the Green Pines Massacre. If I remember correctly the Manticorian position is it was an unprovoked attack by Mesa. Except Oyster Bay was after Green Pines! That's not an unprovoked attack. That's a perfectly valid retaliatory strike.

If I was the Opposition I would hammer that home. The millions dead are square on the heads of the government who murdered a park full of children. If that doesn't get me the government nothing will.

If I get the government I'd immediately start investigations and extradition of everyone (read: political opponents) in anyway negligent, involved, "negligent" or "involved". I would also be brutal with enforcing previously overlooked laws against opponents. Did you forget to give the pirates a warning shot? Then you have "obstruction" charges.

Finally, cement your rule by playing games with what's taxable "pay" and what's just a government subsidy. Since the military probably hates you, those beach paychecks? Those are government subsidies. Free healthcare? Actually your a volunteer for research, and it pays!

Oh and make damn sure loyalists control the planetary defenses.
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Re: Info found on Mesa
Post by ldwechsler   » Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:44 pm

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quite possibly a cat wrote:I don't recall anything about her knowing about the scorched earth tactics or "terrorism" ahead of time. She was just given a location to stay at so she didn't get caught in the attacks.

I suppose Gold Peak could give her an interview and then attempt to interrogate her on the public interview. Leaving aside the question of why they would do that to a random reporter, it would only exacerbate Manticore's PR problem.

Also I wonder about the reaction in Manticore if its learned that Manticore was behind the Green Pines Massacre. If I remember correctly the Manticorian position is it was an unprovoked attack by Mesa. Except Oyster Bay was after Green Pines! That's not an unprovoked attack. That's a perfectly valid retaliatory strike.

If I was the Opposition I would hammer that home. The millions dead are square on the heads of the government who murdered a park full of children. If that doesn't get me the government nothing will.

If I get the government I'd immediately start investigations and extradition of everyone (read: political opponents) in anyway negligent, involved, "negligent" or "involved". I would also be brutal with enforcing previously overlooked laws against opponents. Did you forget to give the pirates a warning shot? Then you have "obstruction" charges.

Finally, cement your rule by playing games with what's taxable "pay" and what's just a government subsidy. Since the military probably hates you, those beach paychecks? Those are government subsidies. Free healthcare? Actually your a volunteer for research, and it pays!

Oh and make damn sure loyalists control the planetary defenses.


First of all, the bombs were NOT the work of Manticore. The one for Gamma Tower was set off by a Mesan Security Person!! The second one by a disaffected seccie.

Therefore, the whole idea is just a Mesan propaganda ploy.

Second, O'Hanrahan is already on board a ship. Speaking to her, it would not be difficult to ask her to point out where she got her info. Yes, she can deny it all, probably will.

But with a treecat close, and we know Henke now has one close and Tourville has one assigned to him, they can ask tougher questions.

She might not want to be there and might say anything afterwards. Of course, she could be held for trial by MESA as part of the group that was actually doing the damage.

The people who hate the Manties will go on hating no matter what info comes out. The ones who hate Mesa, etc., are going to believe what they want.

Note also that Zilwicki might just decide to do a little of his patented snooping on the reporter. Could find out some very interesting things along the way.
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Re: Info found on Mesa
Post by Theemile   » Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:38 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:
quite possibly a cat wrote:I don't recall anything about her knowing about the scorched earth tactics or "terrorism" ahead of time. She was just given a location to stay at so she didn't get caught in the attacks.

I suppose Gold Peak could give her an interview and then attempt to interrogate her on the public interview. Leaving aside the question of why they would do that to a random reporter, it would only exacerbate Manticore's PR problem.

Also I wonder about the reaction in Manticore if its learned that Manticore was behind the Green Pines Massacre. If I remember correctly the Manticorian position is it was an unprovoked attack by Mesa. Except Oyster Bay was after Green Pines! That's not an unprovoked attack. That's a perfectly valid retaliatory strike.

If I was the Opposition I would hammer that home. The millions dead are square on the heads of the government who murdered a park full of children. If that doesn't get me the government nothing will.

If I get the government I'd immediately start investigations and extradition of everyone (read: political opponents) in anyway negligent, involved, "negligent" or "involved". I would also be brutal with enforcing previously overlooked laws against opponents. Did you forget to give the pirates a warning shot? Then you have "obstruction" charges.

Finally, cement your rule by playing games with what's taxable "pay" and what's just a government subsidy. Since the military probably hates you, those beach paychecks? Those are government subsidies. Free healthcare? Actually your a volunteer for research, and it pays!

Oh and make damn sure loyalists control the planetary defenses.


First of all, the bombs were NOT the work of Manticore. The one for Gamma Tower was set off by a Mesan Security Person!! The second one by a disaffected seccie.

Therefore, the whole idea is just a Mesan propaganda ploy.

Second, O'Hanrahan is already on board a ship. Speaking to her, it would not be difficult to ask her to point out where she got her info. Yes, she can deny it all, probably will.

But with a treecat close, and we know Henke now has one close and Tourville has one assigned to him, they can ask tougher questions.

She might not want to be there and might say anything afterwards. Of course, she could be held for trial by MESA as part of the group that was actually doing the damage.

The people who hate the Manties will go on hating no matter what info comes out. The ones who hate Mesa, etc., are going to believe what they want.

Note also that Zilwicki might just decide to do a little of his patented snooping on the reporter. Could find out some very interesting things along the way.


Besides - they are only Treecats - they are limited in that they can tell emotion. They can tell when you are happy and scared. At their best - they can tell if you are being evasive and lying.

But they cannot tell what you are lying about. Or why you are doing it. They will never be able to tell what the secret code is or what you actually were doing last weekend.

So when someone who hates your guts, doesn't trust you, and is working against you walks into the room, you will learn from the treecat that they hate you, are lying to you, and don't trust you. With very pointed questions you may be able to move the needle a bit, but if they have strong emotions, even the best treecat may not be able to discern the subtlies between emotions.

Remember Honor on Haven? - She and Nimitz read the Youngers' emotions, and she learned that they didn't trust her, and were working against her. And of course they were, they were Havenite Politicians at the end of a bloody shooting war were Honor was the Boogyman.

Honor also learned that they didn't like Pritchard and were working against her - again not something new - they were in the opposing political faction and had nearly violently opposing viewpoints to Pritchard's not to mention a ferverent desire for raw power (also sensed).

But it was impossible to tell how they were working against Honor and Pritchart, or how far they would go. It could be just normal Political backstabbing, or they may be proxies for a third party. trying to bring everything down.

So bringing in O'Hanrahan probably wouldn't yield much beyond that she is hiding something - especially because she doesn't know much of the current happenings outside what she has uncovered.
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Re: Info found on Mesa
Post by kzt   » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:57 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:First of all, the bombs were NOT the work of Manticore. The one for Gamma Tower was set off by a Mesan Security Person!!

And that is known to Manticore how? What evidence do they have?

The second one by a disaffected seccie.

Who gave the known to be mentally unstable seccie a nuclear weapon (which he had removed all the security system from) and sent him out unsupervised with full control over it? How exactly has this responsible individual been held to account?

If you had given a child a stolen hand grenade and he had decided to blow up a kindergarten classroom with it do you have a legal responsibility? If they were the 6 year old kids of Nazis would that make it all good?
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Re: Info found on Mesa
Post by ldwechsler   » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:50 pm

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kzt wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:First of all, the bombs were NOT the work of Manticore. The one for Gamma Tower was set off by a Mesan Security Person!!

And that is known to Manticore how? What evidence do they have?

The second one by a disaffected seccie.

Who gave the known to be mentally unstable seccie a nuclear weapon (which he had removed all the security system from) and sent him out unsupervised with full control over it? How exactly has this responsible individual been held to account?

If you had given a child a stolen hand grenade and he had decided to blow up a kindergarten classroom with it do you have a legal responsibility? If they were the 6 year old kids of Nazis would that make it all good?


It still has nothing to do with Zilwicki. Carmichael on Terra was reasonably certain. Everyone who knew Z knew he would never take out a whole group of kids.

So it becomes a matter of who you believe? A group of slave owning sleazoids or a naval officer who has always conducted himself with honor? It's an interesting Rorschach Test, isn't it?
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