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Lacoon 2 and Mesa

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Lacoon 2 and Mesa
Post by wyrm   » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:44 pm

wyrm
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I have a question about the storyline, and hope someone can resolve it for me.

From A Rising Thunder, we know that Lacoon 2 was set in action before the Alignment became aware of Pritchart's trip to Manticore, shutting down the wormhole of the neutral system Zunker in Chapter 3.

We also know that the (officially) Solarian League system (though actually Alignment), Visigoth is close to Beowulf (60 light years). Idaho, the other end of the Zunker-Idaho wormhole is 72 light years distant from Manticore.

So in travel times, it should not take the Star Empire longer to close down the Visigoth wormhole than it takes to close down the Zunker wormhole.

So did the Star Empire shut down the Visigoth-Mesa wormhole? Specifically, before the Alignment knows about Pritchart's trip? I have seen no statement in the canon to that effect, or any statement that it was not shut down.

The objectives of Lacoon 2 imply that the Star Empire should shut down the wormhole, even if they chose to only shutdown the Visigoth end, while not shutting down the Mesa end for 'political reasons'. (Although the act of closing down Zunker suggests that the Star Empire would close down the Mesa wormhole, subject to military constraints).

Logically the Detweilers would have panicked and put Houdini into operation as soon as they heard about the Star Empire closing down wormholes (i.e. well before the Pritchart trip). A Manty picket on the Mesa wormhole would be disastrous to the Houdini evacuation, as Manty anti-slavery policies would stop any suspicious ship (particularly the Jessyk slaver ships we know that Houdini used to transport Zachariah McBryde et al). So the lack of reaction to Lacoon 2 suggests that the Star Empire didn't picket either end of the Visigoth-Mesa wormhole.

Can anyone cast any light of this? is there any word of god from RFC on Lacoon 2 and the Visigoth-Mesa wormhole?
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Re: Lacoon 2 and Mesa
Post by Theemile   » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:01 pm

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wyrm wrote:I have a question about the storyline, and hope someone can resolve it for me.

From A Rising Thunder, we know that Lacoon 2 was set in action before the Alignment became aware of Pritchart's trip to Manticore, shutting down the wormhole of the neutral system Zunker in Chapter 3.

We also know that the (officially) Solarian League system (though actually Alignment), Visigoth is close to Beowulf (60 light years). Idaho, the other end of the Zunker-Idaho wormhole is 72 light years distant from Manticore.

So in travel times, it should not take the Star Empire longer to close down the Visigoth wormhole than it takes to close down the Zunker wormhole.

So did the Star Empire shut down the Visigoth-Mesa wormhole? Specifically, before the Alignment knows about Pritchart's trip? I have seen no statement in the canon to that effect, or any statement that it was not shut down.

The objectives of Lacoon 2 imply that the Star Empire should shut down the wormhole, even if they chose to only shutdown the Visigoth end, while not shutting down the Mesa end for 'political reasons'. (Although the act of closing down Zunker suggests that the Star Empire would close down the Mesa wormhole, subject to military constraints).

Logically the Detweilers would have panicked and put Houdini into operation as soon as they heard about the Star Empire closing down wormholes (i.e. well before the Pritchart trip). A Manty picket on the Mesa wormhole would be disastrous to the Houdini evacuation, as Manty anti-slavery policies would stop any suspicious ship (particularly the Jessyk slaver ships we know that Houdini used to transport Zachariah McBryde et al). So the lack of reaction to Lacoon 2 suggests that the Star Empire didn't picket either end of the Visigoth-Mesa wormhole.

Can anyone cast any light of this? is there any word of god from RFC on Lacoon 2 and the Visigoth-Mesa wormhole?


1) many have asked the same thing

2) to the best of my knowledge, nary a word.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Lacoon 2 and Mesa
Post by JohnRoth   » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:11 pm

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wyrm wrote:I have a question about the storyline, and hope someone can resolve it for me.

From A Rising Thunder, we know that Lacoon 2 was set in action before the Alignment became aware of Pritchart's trip to Manticore, shutting down the wormhole of the neutral system Zunker in Chapter 3.

We also know that the (officially) Solarian League system (though actually Alignment), Visigoth is close to Beowulf (60 light years). Idaho, the other end of the Zunker-Idaho wormhole is 72 light years distant from Manticore.

So in travel times, it should not take the Star Empire longer to close down the Visigoth wormhole than it takes to close down the Zunker wormhole.

So did the Star Empire shut down the Visigoth-Mesa wormhole? Specifically, before the Alignment knows about Pritchart's trip? I have seen no statement in the canon to that effect, or any statement that it was not shut down.

The objectives of Lacoon 2 imply that the Star Empire should shut down the wormhole, even if they chose to only shutdown the Visigoth end, while not shutting down the Mesa end for 'political reasons'. (Although the act of closing down Zunker suggests that the Star Empire would close down the Mesa wormhole, subject to military constraints).

Logically the Detweilers would have panicked and put Houdini into operation as soon as they heard about the Star Empire closing down wormholes (i.e. well before the Pritchart trip). A Manty picket on the Mesa wormhole would be disastrous to the Houdini evacuation, as Manty anti-slavery policies would stop any suspicious ship (particularly the Jessyk slaver ships we know that Houdini used to transport Zachariah McBryde et al). So the lack of reaction to Lacoon 2 suggests that the Star Empire didn't picket either end of the Visigoth-Mesa wormhole.

Can anyone cast any light of this? is there any word of god from RFC on Lacoon 2 and the Visigoth-Mesa wormhole?


As far as I'm aware, Lacoon 2 didn't take over any termini that belonged to SL member systems (unless possibly they were protectorates.) That would have been construed as an Act of War, and they didn't want to escalate that far.
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Re: Lacoon 2 and Mesa
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:15 pm

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wyrm wrote:I have a question about the storyline, and hope someone can resolve it for me.

From A Rising Thunder, we know that Lacoon 2 was set in action before the Alignment became aware of Pritchart's trip to Manticore, shutting down the wormhole of the neutral system Zunker in Chapter 3.

We also know that the (officially) Solarian League system (though actually Alignment), Visigoth is close to Beowulf (60 light years). Idaho, the other end of the Zunker-Idaho wormhole is 72 light years distant from Manticore.

So in travel times, it should not take the Star Empire longer to close down the Visigoth wormhole than it takes to close down the Zunker wormhole.

So did the Star Empire shut down the Visigoth-Mesa wormhole? Specifically, before the Alignment knows about Pritchart's trip? I have seen no statement in the canon to that effect, or any statement that it was not shut down.

The objectives of Lacoon 2 imply that the Star Empire should shut down the wormhole, even if they chose to only shutdown the Visigoth end, while not shutting down the Mesa end for 'political reasons'. (Although the act of closing down Zunker suggests that the Star Empire would close down the Mesa wormhole, subject to military constraints).
Based on RFC expanded explanation of Mike's actions in seizing Mesa it doesn't sound like Manticore ever got around to grabbing the Visigoth end of the Visigoth Mesa hyper-bridge.[1]

Now of course they control it from the Mesa end. But that's more a side effect than a deliberate goal.

But even under Lacoon II Manticore was only seizing wormholes that made sense to them. (Which is why David has a lengthy post around somewhere on why they didn't try to grab the Yildum system's junction; in that case too far away and too well defended). So they're picking and choosing which wormholes make sense to grab.

Grabbing the Visigoth end of that bridge would be pissing off a Core world that has had some commonality of interest with Manticore (Very anti-slavery). Manticore probably chose to leave well enough alone in the short term since without the ability to tie into the network or wormholes covering much of the League's periphery that wormhole won't generate much traffic for OFS. (Plus they presumably planned to snap up the independent, and despicable, Mesa system sooner or later and close the bridge from that end with less diplomatic waves with a Core world would would otherwise hopefully be swayed to oppose the war or if things go to hell break away. (Little does Manticore know that breaking away is exactly what the MAlign has carefully positioned Visigoth to do)

-------------------
[1] His post on page 22 of the 'Out of order snippet? WHAT out of order snippet?' thread.
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Re: Lacoon 2 and Mesa
Post by Brigade XO   » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:32 am

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That they didn't take at least the Visagoth end of that wormhole as well as many others probably has basis in both tactical and strategic thinking.

We saw the Idaho-Zunker bridge and we saw a very long chain of bridges with intervening hyperspace travel leading to a terminus that at a SL controlled system. In both cases, my impression was that this was exactly what the Mandarin propaganda was talking about with the Manticore-Beowuld wormhole being a "dagger at the heart of the SL". They represent the clear tactical paths of least time approch to Manticore. So Manticore took them (with probable agreement though cover stories) to eliminate them as attack routes at Manticore.

They also are refusing any SL flagged ship access which also impacts the economies of the SL and its military support as well as communcations lines via the wormholes. Yes, SL agents can send information via 3rd parties which could pass through Junction termini and any of the Lacoon II siezed bridges but the SL operatives (or Navy) would have to get the information too the operatives to be inserted into some sort of package and get it onto non-SL flagged ships.

Manticore and Haven as the GA can't be everywhere. They don't actualy want to attack SL systems with warships, primarily because that would be a very bad political move and make for a massive propaganda weapon against them. What they can (and have) done is force the SL to have to attempt to clear both ends of any given bridge befor they can use it which would require a lot of time and probably inflict still more massive casualties and ship looses on the SLN for not much in the way of losses to -mostly- Manticore. That's cold-blooded but essentialy tacticly sound. You are going to take losses even if your forces can retreat from any given terminus (to a point) but your going to devastate the attacking force.
You are also going to force the SLN to have to try other things. Long distance/long duration hyperspace flights to mount attacks in force are not truly someting the SLN has much experience with. Haven, Manticore, Grayson and the Aldermani & Erwhon all do have such experience and they already have some level (if even they are rebuilding it) of defence in place on home or major support systems.

It does come down to not attacking SL member systems nor any of the independent systems surrounding the SL. Economic damage yes, but there are ways around that. You can trade with Manticore and Haven etc and not support the League. If you don't want to do either, the GA is NO going to come and smash up your system, you will have to take your trade elcewhere or use only hyperspace but the GA isn't comming for you.

Kingsford's commerce raiding strategy is one practical option for SLN. Not sure how using SLN forces to punish SL members or protectorates or independent systems are going to not cause a lot more trouble for the League as the perception of SL and the SLN as a protector shifts to a weak, incompetent shell to a spitefull bully .

10th fleet going after Mesa was another tactical/stratigic decision. It was identified and there was plenty of evidence that it is a major source of much of what has been happening. So Mike took the responsibility of cutting to a core of the problem. Based on what we have been shown, Mesa is complicit in literary centuries of problems including the instigation of the war between Haven and Manticore. Then there is the whole genetic slavery thing which has clearly had Mesa at the heart of production and so much of the problems formented in the Talbott Quadrdant.

Mesa is a bit "out there" tacticaly because for the time being, 10th Fleet and the Haven Fleet are going to have to be supplied via the Lynx terminus. But the rest? Manticor is sitting in what are deemed defensible positions on the major approach routes against the Manticore Home System and the Haven Republic. Interior lines of communications or holding the wormhole bridges leading to the edges of the GA primary territory.
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