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Can a Roland carry Marines?

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Re: Can a Roland carry Marines?
Post by Brigade XO   » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:50 pm

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Have you noticed that EVERY ship has an astogator? And in a lot of cases an assistant? Home Fleet at the Battle of Manticore had something like 300 capital ships meaning at least 600 of them just waiting in the system.


Their STARSHIPS, you should expect starships to have at least one astrogator because you should expect them to be moved someplace out of a system at any time. Or in-system....its a navigation post.
Ok, ships assigned to Home Fleet are likely to remain in the Manticore system until assigned elcewhere but they do need to manuver and move around within the system and that includes both between the binary stars and probably out to at least the Junction at need.
This is a position (and skill) that needs to be taught and learned plus experienc gained. If you have 300 capital starships you need at least 300 astrogator/navigators for them. In a place like the binary system with the Junction and then all those termini connected you need the ability to take your ship(s) safely and quickly from point to point with accuracy. And when you get where you are going you have to be able to go....anywhere.

It is not unreasonable to put trainee astrogators on duty with Home Fleet ships to gain practical experience before assigning them to smaller ships (in whatever capasity) to gain more experience.

Heck, having to figure getting SAFELY between the hyper-limits of the binary system stars is a non-trivial exercise. This is RMN we are talking about. They have to anticipate needing to move ships between elements of the home system and out to at least the Junction if a problem comes up. So every ship has to have at least one person who can do the job (and train others) to do that. I don't see being the Admiral assigned to an SD and being told the ship is being transfered to Spindle or some system out in Silesia from Manticore saying "I don't have anyone qualified to do the navigation so we can't comply till you send us someone who can handle the job" Big Smile.
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Re: Can a Roland carry Marines?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:59 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:Have you noticed that EVERY ship has an astogator? And in a lot of cases an assistant? Home Fleet at the Battle of Manticore had something like 300 capital ships meaning at least 600 of them just waiting in the system.

Since the on duty astrogator appears (based on what Lt. Stromboli is doing in OBS) to do all navigation plotting for in-system as well as hyperspace travel, that's like noting that every USN ship has a navigation officer - even ones that spend all their time assigned as CVG escorts.

Somebody on each shift will be acting Astrogation Officer, and responsible for planning any courses even if what they do is 90% accept what the computer suggests. Though I wouldn't be surprised if that duty it's customarily bundled with additional non-navigation related duties; to perform either off watch or while the ship is peacefully floating in orbit with cold nodes. (I suspect there's no need to keep updating various contingency courses when docked in station or orbiting with cold nodes because it takes longer to bring up the wedge from that state than it does to work up courses for the captain's approval)
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Re: Can a Roland carry Marines?
Post by saber964   » Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:09 pm

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As someone who has observed a small flag staff of a DesRon and been on a flag staff for a CVSG. Perhaps I should weigh in a bit. The named staff members are essentially department heads. On small staffs like a DesRon they are essentially their own staff members who do the designated jobs by themselves or with a very small staff. The DesRon staff had only 20 - 25 people on it total.
IIRC this was the TO&E of the staff.
CoS ACoS + YN
Ops AOps + CPO and 2 PO
IntelO AIntelO + CPO and 6-10 Intel PO
CommO + CPO and 3 RM PO
SupO + 1-2 SK PO

On the CVSG staff we had 100 - 150 staff members. Where was I on the staff. I was on the Admirals boat crew which IIRC had 8 people to take care of one boat.
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Re: Can a Roland carry Marines?
Post by ldwechsler   » Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:21 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:
Have you noticed that EVERY ship has an astogator? And in a lot of cases an assistant? Home Fleet at the Battle of Manticore had something like 300 capital ships meaning at least 600 of them just waiting in the system.


Their STARSHIPS, you should expect starships to have at least one astrogator because you should expect them to be moved someplace out of a system at any time. Or in-system....its a navigation post.
Ok, ships assigned to Home Fleet are likely to remain in the Manticore system until assigned elcewhere but they do need to manuver and move around within the system and that includes both between the binary stars and probably out to at least the Junction at need.
This is a position (and skill) that needs to be taught and learned plus experienc gained. If you have 300 capital starships you need at least 300 astrogator/navigators for them. In a place like the binary system with the Junction and then all those termini connected you need the ability to take your ship(s) safely and quickly from point to point with accuracy. And when you get where you are going you have to be able to go....anywhere.

It is not unreasonable to put trainee astrogators on duty with Home Fleet ships to gain practical experience before assigning them to smaller ships (in whatever capasity) to gain more experience.

Heck, having to figure getting SAFELY between the hyper-limits of the binary system stars is a non-trivial exercise. This is RMN we are talking about. They have to anticipate needing to move ships between elements of the home system and out to at least the Junction if a problem comes up. So every ship has to have at least one person who can do the job (and train others) to do that. I don't see being the Admiral assigned to an SD and being told the ship is being transfered to Spindle or some system out in Silesia from Manticore saying "I don't have anyone qualified to do the navigation so we can't comply till you send us someone who can handle the job" Big Smile.


Try to read a bit more carefully, please. I was not writing that each ship should not have an astrogtor, I was noting that it might not be necessary for the staff of a four or even eight ship flotilla to worry about having one since each ship would have at least one. The flagship's astrogator could presumably handle the job.

Yes, there are an enormous number of astrogators who probably won't have a lot to do. AFter all, if the staff astrogator plans a plot, how much do the other ones have to do?

When Zavala broke off from Chitterjee (or the other way around), was it necessary to have two sets of astogators for the two different flagships? Boy, talk about a boring job.

If a ship is on its own, at least one and in reality at least two are necessary. When Honor took her ships to Sidemore, she had hundreds of them doing the same course.
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Re: Can a Roland carry Marines?
Post by Theemile   » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:27 am

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ldwechsler wrote:
Brigade XO wrote:
Their STARSHIPS, you should expect starships to have at least one astrogator because you should expect them to be moved someplace out of a system at any time. Or in-system....its a navigation post.
Ok, ships assigned to Home Fleet are likely to remain in the Manticore system until assigned elcewhere but they do need to manuver and move around within the system and that includes both between the binary stars and probably out to at least the Junction at need.
This is a position (and skill) that needs to be taught and learned plus experienc gained. If you have 300 capital starships you need at least 300 astrogator/navigators for them. In a place like the binary system with the Junction and then all those termini connected you need the ability to take your ship(s) safely and quickly from point to point with accuracy. And when you get where you are going you have to be able to go....anywhere.

It is not unreasonable to put trainee astrogators on duty with Home Fleet ships to gain practical experience before assigning them to smaller ships (in whatever capasity) to gain more experience.

Heck, having to figure getting SAFELY between the hyper-limits of the binary system stars is a non-trivial exercise. This is RMN we are talking about. They have to anticipate needing to move ships between elements of the home system and out to at least the Junction if a problem comes up. So every ship has to have at least one person who can do the job (and train others) to do that. I don't see being the Admiral assigned to an SD and being told the ship is being transfered to Spindle or some system out in Silesia from Manticore saying "I don't have anyone qualified to do the navigation so we can't comply till you send us someone who can handle the job" Big Smile.


Try to read a bit more carefully, please. I was not writing that each ship should not have an astrogtor, I was noting that it might not be necessary for the staff of a four or even eight ship flotilla to worry about having one since each ship would have at least one. The flagship's astrogator could presumably handle the job.

Yes, there are an enormous number of astrogators who probably won't have a lot to do. AFter all, if the staff astrogator plans a plot, how much do the other ones have to do?

When Zavala broke off from Chitterjee (or the other way around), was it necessary to have two sets of astogators for the two different flagships? Boy, talk about a boring job.

If a ship is on its own, at least one and in reality at least two are necessary. When Honor took her ships to Sidemore, she had hundreds of them doing the same course.



Zavala isn't a Flag officer, he is the senior Captain in his division, as such he took over the Commodore's responsibilities when Chatergee died. He does not (yet) have a flag staff, and handles everything the flag staff would with his normal crew.

A good example of the Navigator's job is the Assignment given to Helen Z during her middie cruise. She inputted the course parameters into the computer, and it spit out several optimized courses, and she found one which was counter-intuitive which saved time, due to Grave wave speed limits in others.

It's been mentioned several times in text that plotting multiple ship's hyper translations is more difficult than one ship. Each ship's hyper systems operates at a slightly different frequency, and all must be taken into account to plot a pinpoint course properly. This obviously gets more complex, the more ships are in the formation, and requires a more senior hand to calculate. It not that more Navigators are needed, it is that better Navigator's are required.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Can a Roland carry Marines?
Post by ldwechsler   » Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:22 am

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Brigade XO wrote:
Have you noticed that EVERY ship has an astogator? And in a lot of cases an assistant? Home Fleet at the Battle of Manticore had something like 300 capital ships meaning at least 600 of them just waiting in the system.


Their STARSHIPS, you should expect starships to have at least one astrogator because you should expect them to be moved someplace out of a system at any time. Or in-system....its a navigation post.
Ok, ships assigned to Home Fleet are likely to remain in the Manticore system until assigned elcewhere but they do need to manuver and move around within the system and that includes both between the binary stars and probably out to at least the Junction at need.
This is a position (and skill) that needs to be taught and learned plus experienc gained. If you have 300 capital starships you need at least 300 astrogator/navigators for them. In a place like the binary system with the Junction and then all those termini connected you need the ability to take your ship(s) safely and quickly from point to point with accuracy. And when you get where you are going you have to be able to go....anywhere.

It is not unreasonable to put trainee astrogators on duty with Home Fleet ships to gain practical experience before assigning them to smaller ships (in whatever capasity) to gain more experience.

Heck, having to figure getting SAFELY between the hyper-limits of the binary system stars is a non-trivial exercise. This is RMN we are talking about. They have to anticipate needing to move ships between elements of the home system and out to at least the Junction if a problem comes up. So every ship has to have at least one person who can do the job (and train others) to do that. I don't see being the Admiral assigned to an SD and being told the ship is being transfered to Spindle or some system out in Silesia from Manticore saying "I don't have anyone qualified to do the navigation so we can't comply till you send us someone who can handle the job" Big Smile.


I agree that every ship needs a navigator (astrogator). But notice that Helen Z was able to do the job when asked and she was out of the academy. Yes, it's tricky. And it is necessary.

But as I pointed out there are a real lot of astrogators.

And then we look at Zavala. Yes, he was second in command to Chitterjee. But did he have a staff ready to take over when the command was split? Going back to the British Navy, which RFC does, there were two types of commodore, those with flags and those without.

Zavala fits the second type. Basically, just senior captain. So does he have a chief of staff, etc.? Chatterjee's staff was there for the four ships he took to New Tuscany. Who did Zavala have?

Also, do you think Chitterjee needed a staff the size of Michelle Henke's?

It's clear that some staff would be very useful if a small group has a mission on its own. But would it need the kind of staffing required for a larger group? Of course not. Also keep in mind that if Zavala had a staff for just in case, the ships in his group would be evaluated by his staff and then go to Chatterjee's. And if part of a really large group there could be a half dozen people looking at the food lists for a single ship.

We are flummoxed by what we do not know.
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Re: Can a Roland carry Marines?
Post by ldwechsler   » Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:14 am

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I noticed in Storm from the Shadows that Terekhov, commanding a group of cruisers had a chief of staff (mentioned early) and then Helen thought about the others who joined the staff: an operations officer, an intelligence officer, an astrogator and a communications officer. Plus a flag lieutenant.

No one else is mentioned. I would guess that the Roland commodore would have no more than that. Probably no less.

Not much room for a squad of marines. On the cruisers there was room for offices but Helen noted that because of her position she did not have to share a bunk with another ensign.

She also used the ship's gym, etc.

Frankly I think these staffs are overloaded. But this is RFC's universe.
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Re: Can a Roland carry Marines?
Post by kzt   » Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:26 am

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Did you see the drawing of the berthing area in the Fitzgerald? That had berthing for iirc 35 men in roughly the space of a honorverse captains quarters. And the commodore gets at least the same size quarters.
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Re: Can a Roland carry Marines?
Post by glott   » Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:41 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:I noticed in Storm from the Shadows that Terekhov, commanding a group of cruisers had a chief of staff (mentioned early) and then Helen thought about the others who joined the staff: an operations officer, an intelligence officer, an astrogator and a communications officer. Plus a flag lieutenant.

No one else is mentioned. I would guess that the Roland commodore would have no more than that. Probably no less.

Not much room for a squad of marines. On the cruisers there was room for offices but Helen noted that because of her position she did not have to share a bunk with another ensign.

She also used the ship's gym, etc.

Frankly I think these staffs are overloaded. But this is RFC's universe.


Bold mine.

Since I don't have any RL knowledge about the typical size of a flag officer's staff, I can't say how the RMN's compare. But I think it would be interesting to see how big a SLN staff is. Considering the rank inflation of staff officers in the SLN, I imagine that its size would be quite a bit bigger then what the staff of comparable RMN formation would be.
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Re: Can a Roland carry Marines?
Post by ldwechsler   » Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:57 pm

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glott wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:I noticed in Storm from the Shadows that Terekhov, commanding a group of cruisers had a chief of staff (mentioned early) and then Helen thought about the others who joined the staff: an operations officer, an intelligence officer, an astrogator and a communications officer. Plus a flag lieutenant.

No one else is mentioned. I would guess that the Roland commodore would have no more than that. Probably no less.

Not much room for a squad of marines. On the cruisers there was room for offices but Helen noted that because of her position she did not have to share a bunk with another ensign.

She also used the ship's gym, etc.

Frankly I think these staffs are overloaded. But this is RFC's universe.


Bold mine.

Since I don't have any RL knowledge about the typical size of a flag officer's staff, I can't say how the RMN's compare. But I think it would be interesting to see how big a SLN staff is. Considering the rank inflation of staff officers in the SLN, I imagine that its size would be quite a bit bigger then what the staff of comparable RMN formation would be.


I am certain of it. But we should note that there PROBABLY would be differences in size based on the size of the fleet the admiral (or commodore) is commanding.

HH had hundreds of ships but Chatterjee had eight.

And we know that Tourville had a logistics officer for his fleet so that might be a difference.

Imagine the fountain of decision. Some supply officer, probably a warrant, handles her ship's needs. She reports to an officer in charge of the group of six or eight. And that person reports to a higher ranking officer handling the screen for the force. And that person reports to a higher ranking one for the whole task force. And if they're part of a larger fleet, there are more reports.

Since we can assume they might have finally ended using paper, think of all the busy electrons.

And, most interesting. Every ship has at least one astrogator. But so does each smaller group like a destroyer squadron. And each of the groups as it gets larger has another one staff one.

But when Filareta moved to the Manticore system it looked like the navigation was done by HIS staff astrogator. It might be interesting to see what each of the OTHER astrogators do.
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