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Where where the Beowulf Super Dreadnoughts built?

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Re: Where where the Beowulf Super Dreadnoughts built?
Post by Maldorian   » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:57 pm

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[quote][Besides, why not sell (or lease) a handful of Invicti instead? If no one is going to notice the presence of a rebranded Nike (In reality, a Battleship) , they are not going to notice true wallers with fresh paint. And while a single Nike could hold it's own against a division of SLN SDs, 3 divisions of Invicti would shred a hundred SDs without blinking.

In the end, none if it happened. David said there is no Manty hardware on any of the ships at Beowulf, a conscious decision of both Manticore and Beowulf to let sleeping intelligence agencies lie as long as possible./quote]

Manty gimmicks would be very helpful, but you can build better hardware than Scientist and Vega class without all that.

How big was the scientist class? Was it around 7million tons? If I remember correct, a newer manty superdreadnought has 8.5million tons. So, if you go to the most possible size with solarian tec you get also better ships.

Another point is the use of missles. I am not sure, but if I am remember correct, than have manticorian ships more missles and counter missles even before the war, they increase that during the war.

How old are the missles the Solarian Navy use? The Navy of Beowulf could increase their power if they buy or build better, newer designs. We are talking about the solarian league! There are more than one missle seller in the league.

You get the point: Even without the help of Manticore Beowulf can buy or research better equipment.

And we shouldn´t forget, that there are close connections between Beowulf and Manticore, so, if someone leaves a manticorian company and join a Beowulfian company and bring some knowledge with him/her....
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Re: Where where the Beowulf Super Dreadnoughts built?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:23 pm

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Maldorian wrote:How big was the scientist class? Was it around 7million tons? If I remember correct, a newer manty superdreadnought has 8.5million tons. So, if you go to the most possible size with solarian tec you get also better ships.

Another point is the use of missles. I am not sure, but if I am remember correct, than have manticorian ships more missles and counter missles even before the war, they increase that during the war.

How old are the missles the Solarian Navy use? The Navy of Beowulf could increase their power if they buy or build better, newer designs. We are talking about the solarian league! There are more than one missle seller in the league.

You get the point: Even without the help of Manticore Beowulf can buy or research better equipment.
Actually in raw number of tubes the Scientist class, at 6,800,000 tons carries 32 broadside missile tubes; which compares favorably to the slightly larger, and much newer, RMN Bellerophon-class DN at 6,985,250 with 33 broadside tubes.

But you can see her pre-laserhead heritage when you look at a Scientist's defenses. Each broadside carries 16 CMs and 32 PDLCs; vs the RMN design which caries 24 of each. PDLC heavy is more effective vs burn or boom nukes with at best <5,000 km standoff. But it struggles against laserheads with their 30,000 km (now 50,000 km for 1st line navies) standoff range - those you really need the extra defensive depth CMs give you.


Then there's the individual quality question. We're told that at least the BCs have a significantly longer cycle time on their missile and CM launchers than the equivalent 1900 PD RMN design. So over a fixed time the Bellerophon should be able to pump out at least 40% more rounds. Also I don't know how their PDLCs stack up to a pre-war RMN DN or SD, but they're said to be individually inferior to an Agamemnon-class BC(P)'s PDLCs.

As to the missiles, I don't know how good their seekers and programming is, but their basic drives are actually better than what Manticore had at the start of the war. Their Javelin capital missile can run at 467 KPS^2 for 180 seconds (max range 7.57 million km) compared to the RMN's pre-war SDM which could only do 451 KPS^2 for 180 seconds (max range 7.30 million km).
Don't have numbers on their CMs so I don't know if they've got the same 3% advantage as their SDMs.

Still, slow rates of offensive and defensive fire, defenses optimized to missiles that have to come much closer to be danerous, presumably armor optimized to resist nukes not stand up to bomb-pumped lasers, and pitiful ECM programming, these things would be significantly out of their league against pre-war RMN DNs; much less the larger SDs.
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Re: Where where the Beowulf Super Dreadnoughts built?
Post by pappilon   » Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:15 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Maldorian wrote:How big was the scientist class? Was it around 7million tons? If I remember correct, a newer manty superdreadnought has 8.5million tons. So, if you go to the most possible size with solarian tec you get also better ships.

Another point is the use of missles. I am not sure, but if I am remember correct, than have manticorian ships more missles and counter missles even before the war, they increase that during the war.

How old are the missles the Solarian Navy use? The Navy of Beowulf could increase their power if they buy or build better, newer designs. We are talking about the solarian league! There are more than one missle seller in the league.

You get the point: Even without the help of Manticore Beowulf can buy or research better equipment.
Actually in raw number of tubes the Scientist class, at 6,800,000 tons carries 32 broadside missile tubes; which compares favorably to the slightly larger, and much newer, RMN Bellerophon-class DN at 6,985,250 with 33 broadside tubes.

But you can see her pre-laserhead heritage when you look at a Scientist's defenses. Each broadside carries 16 CMs and 32 PDLCs; vs the RMN design which caries 24 of each. PDLC heavy is more effective vs burn or boom nukes with at best <5,000 km standoff. But it struggles against laserheads with their 30,000 km (now 50,000 km for 1st line navies) standoff range - those you really need the extra defensive depth CMs give you.


Then there's the individual quality question. We're told that at least the BCs have a significantly longer cycle time on their missile and CM launchers than the equivalent 1900 PD RMN design. So over a fixed time the Bellerophon should be able to pump out at least 40% more rounds. Also I don't know how their PDLCs stack up to a pre-war RMN DN or SD, but they're said to be individually inferior to an Agamemnon-class BC(P)'s PDLCs.

As to the missiles, I don't know how good their seekers and programming is, but their basic drives are actually better than what Manticore had at the start of the war. Their Javelin capital missile can run at 467 KPS^2 for 180 seconds (max range 7.57 million km) compared to the RMN's pre-war SDM which could only do 451 KPS^2 for 180 seconds (max range 7.30 million km).
Don't have numbers on their CMs so I don't know if they've got the same 3% advantage as their SDMs.

Still, slow rates of offensive and defensive fire, defenses optimized to missiles that have to come much closer to be danerous, presumably armor optimized to resist nukes not stand up to bomb-pumped lasers, and pitiful ECM programming, these things would be significantly out of their league against pre-war RMN DNs; much less the larger SDs.


Basically even the newest SLN ships and designs are 200 years old. They have done some upgrades like replacing anti-missile chain guns with laser clusters, and their tethered EW platforms, but the designs, and more importantly the parameters they operate under were obsolete by the start of the first Havenite war.
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Re: Where where the Beowulf Super Dreadnoughts built?
Post by fester   » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:52 am

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pappilon wrote:
Basically even the newest SLN ships and designs are 200 years old. They have done some upgrades like replacing anti-missile chain guns with laser clusters, and their tethered EW platforms, but the designs, and more importantly the parameters they operate under were obsolete by the start of the first Havenite war.


I don't think we can make that strong of a claim. I think the claim is that the base SLN models for their fleet were probably one or two refit cycles behind their RMN same time of design peer constructions but it was refit cycles not build cycles. It sure looks like the Scientists and Vegas look a lot like the Samothrace and Manticore and early King Williams class SDs.

Samothrace/Manticore/King Williams were still viable combatants for secondary roles in 1905PD. They are dog meat in 1920-1922 PD.

In 1905, SLN superdreads might be inferior 1:1 against Manticoran first line superdreads but the SLN doctrine of assembling 500+ SDs and swamping a neobarb Home Fleet would have worked. It would have produced more losses than the 90th percentile projection but it would have worked and if the first wave did not work, the second wave, once the Reserve was activated would have worked.

I have argued elsewhere that up until 1911/1912 PD the SLN ship by ship inferiority against the RMN/GSN is strategically irrelevant. It is only the mass introduction of the GhostRider programs that changes the strategic equilibrium.
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Re: Where where the Beowulf Super Dreadnoughts built?
Post by PalmerSperry   » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:36 am

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Theemile wrote:David said there is no Manty hardware on any of the ships at Beowulf, a conscious decision of both Manticore and Beowulf to let sleeping intelligence agencies lie as long as possible.


"No Manty hardware" is a phrase that can be interpreted in more than one way ...

The narrowest possible definition is simply that there is no hardware in the BSDF that was manufactured in Manticore. Exceptionally one might argue that hardware manufactured in Grayson was not manufactured in Manticore! :lol: But more seriously one could certainly argue that if Manticore supplied the blueprints and explanations, but Beowulf built the actual equipment then it's Beowulf hardware that's installed on their BSDF!

I don't think that's a likely explanation, but as an aside, does one consider the BAe Skyflash and Selenia Aspide to be "American hardware"? Even though they have quite a large amount of differences from the Raytheon Sparrows that where around at the same time.

The other extreme would be that the BSDF contains no hardware that is not found in either Frontier or Battle Fleet. Personally I'm not 100% convinced by this approach either, though I'll grant that's way more possible than the other extreme!

What I do think is possible is that the BSDF contains some advancements that are not found in the SLN. Improved compensators have been around for a while now, it's entirely possible IMHO that Beowulf has developed it's own version (maybe with a few hints along the way from Manticore) and installed them on the BSDF as & when possible, but locked out the improved acceleration with software (e.g. Even though the Captain, Helmsman and Engineer all think they're at 80%, really they're only at 75% and if they go to 100% they're only at 93.75%). That's an invisible improvement until you want it otherwise.

Some of the other possible improvements are entirely achievable (if not to full Manticoran Alliance levels) too. Improved cycle times on your missile and counter-missile launchers for instance, and again that could be invisibly locked out with software if so desired. More counter-missile launchers and more PDLC is obviously not something you can hide, but given the FF/BF opinion of the SDFs not necessarily something they might pay very much attention to.

Plus AFAICS some of the other improvements are more a factor of doctrine and training, which the BSDF could easily manage quite openly without getting anything more than a laugh from the SLN if they found out - "Oh look at those silly SDF people training against a threat that (a) can't exist and (b) would never threaten anyone protected by the mighty SLN even if it did exist!"
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Re: Where where the Beowulf Super Dreadnoughts built?
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:32 pm

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PalmerSperry wrote:
Theemile wrote:David said there is no Manty hardware on any of the ships at Beowulf, a conscious decision of both Manticore and Beowulf to let sleeping intelligence agencies lie as long as possible.


What I do think is possible is that the BSDF contains some advancements that are not found in the SLN. Improved compensators have been around for a while now, it's entirely possible IMHO that Beowulf has developed it's own version (maybe with a few hints along the way from Manticore) and installed them on the BSDF as & when possible, but locked out the improved acceleration with software ...


In the same quote that Themile referenced, David also said there is "no secret Manty Mode" hidden in BSDF hardware.

PalmerSperry wrote:Plus AFAICS some of the other improvements are more a factor of doctrine and training, ...


This is the BSDF's advantage over the SLN; realistic training. Possible even a few officers with Saganami Island courses in their resume.

Textev makes a point of mentioning that SLN "Training" is a scripted scenario where the "proper" responses are known in advance to everyone. Just making training a realistic simulation instead of a "passion play" is light-years better than SLN "training."
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Where where the Beowulf Super Dreadnoughts built?
Post by pappilon   » Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:59 pm

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PalmerSperry wrote:Plus AFAICS some of the other improvements are more a factor of doctrine and training, ...


This is the BSDF's advantage over the SLN; realistic training. Possible even a few officers with Saganami Island courses in their resume.

Weird Harold wrote: Textev makes a point of mentioning that SLN "Training" is a scripted scenario where the "proper" responses are known in advance to everyone. Just making training a realistic simulation instead of a "passion play" is light-years better than SLN "training."


Doctrine is the basis of, well ... everything from tradeoffs in hull design, armament, mission, training etc.

SLN doctrine is 200 years obsolete for all the reasons others have mentioned above. So, therefore, despite the upgrades in design, armament, electronics hardware, EW etc the SLN is woefully obsolete. As is quoted frequently in textev, SLN hardware is pretty darned up to Manticore hardware, their software sucks, the issue is the mindset and arrogance of the REMFs that control the SLN. Until that changes. Therefore we are back to doctrine.

asn't there some textev of the admiral in charge running sims of their cm programs against known RMN missile performances because "it wasn't possible"?
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Ursula K. LeGuinn

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Re: Where where the Beowulf Super Dreadnoughts built?
Post by PalmerSperry   » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:03 am

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Weird Harold wrote:In the same quote that Themile referenced, David also said there is "no secret Manty Mode" hidden in BSDF hardware.


Well if there's no hardware made in Manticore or to designs supplied by Manticore then obviously there would be no "Secret Manty Mode" to activate ... However if the BSDF has slightly advanced compensators (as compared to the SLN standard model) developed and manufactured solely by Beowulf, why would that be a "Secret Manty Mode"?

Or for another alternative possibility. We know that Beowulf maintained diplomatic relations with Haven after the St Just was overthrown, and we know that they where conducting at least some espionage through said embassy, so if Beowulf stole the design to the Havenite improved compensator would that be covered by "No Manticoran hardware in the BSDF" and/or "No secret Manty Mode"?

As I said in my first post, "No Manticoran hardware" can be taken to mean several things on a scale that moves between "The BSDF uses exactly the same hardware and software as the SLN with absolutely no differences at all" and "The BSDF has no hardware or software that is stamped 'Made in Manticore'".
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Re: Where where the Beowulf Super Dreadnoughts built?
Post by drothgery   » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:44 am

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My guess is that anything in the BSDF built after 1880 PD or so probably followed the same design principles that the RMN followed, and so is an explicitly laser-head era design. And so has much tougher missile defenses than a nominal peer SLN design. But nothing in Gryphon or Star Knight would set off any 'WTF is that' bells to an SLN observer, and I suspect that's what the BSDF effectively has.
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Re: Where where the Beowulf Super Dreadnoughts built?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:58 am

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PalmerSperry wrote:Well if there's no hardware made in Manticore or to designs supplied by Manticore then obviously there would be no "Secret Manty Mode" to activate ... However if the BSDF has slightly advanced compensators (as compared to the SLN standard model) developed and manufactured solely by Beowulf, why would that be a "Secret Manty Mode"?

Or for another alternative possibility. We know that Beowulf maintained diplomatic relations with Haven after the St Just was overthrown, and we know that they where conducting at least some espionage through said embassy, so if Beowulf stole the design to the Havenite improved compensator would that be covered by "No Manticoran hardware in the BSDF" and/or "No secret Manty Mode"?
Maybe. But Manticore has only had improved compensators for about 17 years, and Haven no more than 6 (didn't crack it until sometime after the St. Just ceasefire)

Even if Beowulf had reinvented, or stolen, it'd be bloody obvious if they rushed it into their SDs. The refits to install the upgraded compensator would take an RMN SD out of combat for months = and that at max war priority from the most efficient shipyards known.

Beowolf probably has a standard, slow and steady drumbeat, refit cycle on her 34ish SDs; necessary so the SD refit yard isn't sitting idel with worker laid off or their skill atrophying. There's probably only workforce and slips to handle one major refit and one repair refit at a time. Say on roughly a 10 month cycle, a month or two of that being clean-up and prep between SDs the rest being the refit. Given 34 SDs that gives each a major refit every 28 1/3 years; not unreasonable on ships that serve for centuries and tech that had been largely plateaud for at least 100 years - and far faster than the SLN managed updates.

A rush to get all their ships updated to a better compensator would be extremely noticeable, and expensive. Additional workers brought on for a few years, ships coming in for refit years to decades early. If you then wanted it to be a "secret" mode you'd have to come up with a cover story to tell virtually everyone involved - yet the yard workers and many of the ship crew would know that the old compensator was yanked and a new one installed...

I'd bet that even if, at some point along the way, Beowulf discovered, swiped, or was given the secret to better compensators that no more than maybe, maybe, a quarter of their ships have it; done during their already routinely scheduled major refits. (And of course the same applies to hardware refits; you can't upgrade the whole fleet secretly, and in general it's hard to hide what components you're replacing. Now distributing improved tac computer software or ECM / counter-ECM packages is a different story. Those should be much easier and faster to distribute as BSDF coders incorporate whatever knowledge their observers to the war gain about the evolution of combat)
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