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Stupid idea that David is going to hate.

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Re: Stupid idea that David is going to hate.
Post by Dauntless   » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:07 am

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Lord Skimper wrote:Just deploy a Nat Turner with each Freighter. Solves your problem, ships exist and are cheap and easy to run.


except all major navies have abanded the frigate.

The Nat turner's aren't bad ships but they are too small to be useful against a proper warship and yes the plan is to use them against pirates which are rarely proper warships, but few navies can afford to have ships that are only of use against weak enemies.

Torch is the only place ordering NEW frigates for its navy and they only did that for only a couple reasons.

1) they didn't even have a navy and it made more sense to start out with the smallest Hyper capable combatant they could get while the RTN become a thing. Yes the RTN has many ex mantines and wolfer navy types but a lot of it is still ex slaves that have never been part of a Navy before.

2)IF they hadn't needed something to run down slavers they would probably have settled for LACs while they got everything properly organised and only then have gone with some DDs and CLs.
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Re: Stupid idea that David is going to hate.
Post by Brigade XO   » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:04 pm

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You can probably add as #3 that a couple of more Nat Turner class would be helpfull in training up more RTN personel while they are were waiting for something larger like a DD or two and/or a CL to be built at Manticore (or possibly Grayson. That -unless something was delivered in the Python Lump before OB- is going to be on hold a while.
Torch does have a couple of PRH-in Excile that were probably being used to train people though the question there is if they would be using them for more than training ships. It was Haven systems and weapons though they should have been able to get replacements and more munitions from Haven. If they are being training ships, they probably aren't sending them out of system though it is certainly possible they would used in system defence if something popped up. There is the currently unknown (to all but the Alignment) of the demolition devices added when they were repaired/upgraded for the attack on the Torch system but if that were known they would have been tearing them appart looking for them or doing nothing with them except stripping for materials.
Torch has been raiding against slavers, not attacking places with warships in residence. Not quite gorilla warfare though it does follow along the lines of hit-them-where-they-arn't when it comes to engaging actual warships. Armed freighters a frigate should be able to handle if it is't a Q-ship. It is making life impossible for Manpower and the groups that transport slaves along with freeing those slaves that is behind the Torch missions we have seen so far. Going after Mesa SDF ships wasn't going to be practicable but crippiling the slaver transportation systems is
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Re: Stupid idea that David is going to hate.
Post by Weird Harold   » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:28 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:Torch does have a couple of PRH-in Excile that were probably being used to train people though the question there is if they would be using them for more than training ships. It was Haven systems and weapons though they should have been able to get replacements and more munitions from Haven.


There were several older Mars-class Havenite ships "inherited" from the PNE, but there were also several SLN BCs inherited from the PNE. The SLN types were gifted to the RTN because Roshak wouldn't be able to explain gaining them just yet.

All of them are being used as training ships, even the battle damaged ships are useful for training on repair of battle damage. Maya and Erewhon are supplying trainers, IIRC. Haven and Manticore probably are, too, but I don't recall any specific textev.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Stupid idea that David is going to hate.
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:25 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
Brigade XO wrote:Torch does have a couple of PRH-in Excile that were probably being used to train people though the question there is if they would be using them for more than training ships. It was Haven systems and weapons though they should have been able to get replacements and more munitions from Haven.


There were several older Mars-class Havenite ships "inherited" from the PNE, but there were also several SLN BCs inherited from the PNE. The SLN types were gifted to the RTN because Roshak wouldn't be able to explain gaining them just yet.

All of them are being used as training ships, even the battle damaged ships are useful for training on repair of battle damage. Maya and Erewhon are supplying trainers, IIRC. Haven and Manticore probably are, too, but I don't recall any specific textev.
Prior to the battle of Torch, Torch had "well over a dozen frigates" [ToF], "there were eight of the Turners" [ToF] and "the Torch Navy had just ordered its first trio of all-up destroyers" [ToF]
And "seven of the John Brown-class and eight of the newer Nat Turner-class. The John Brown-class were modernized conventional frigates while the Nat Turner-class were the more fancy hyper-capable Shrike equivalents" [CoG]

In addition during SoS it's methioned that d'Arezzo understands that Torch "negotiation with both use and the tPeeps for heavier ships. Even 'obsolete' Allied designs are as good as anything Mesa or Manpower might have" [SoS]

And that was before "Luis Roszak handed Torch the heavy cruiser Spartacus and all the other captured warships which had surrendered to him after the Battle of Torch" [CoG]

Of course the captured PNE ships were "earmarked for substantial upgrading courtesy of Haven, but until that process had been completed, the Turners were much better training platforms and combat units in almost every respect." [CoG]

So even before they got the windfall of captured ships Torch was already looking to expand past frigates. Ordering some new build destroyers and apparently nosing around for deals on Haven or Manticore warships going surplus.
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Re: Stupid idea that David is going to hate.
Post by Theemile   » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:50 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:
There were several older Mars-class Havenite ships "inherited" from the PNE, but there were also several SLN BCs inherited from the PNE. The SLN types were gifted to the RTN because Roshak wouldn't be able to explain gaining them just yet.

All of them are being used as training ships, even the battle damaged ships are useful for training on repair of battle damage. Maya and Erewhon are supplying trainers, IIRC. Haven and Manticore probably are, too, but I don't recall any specific textev.
Prior to the battle of Torch, Torch had "well over a dozen frigates" [ToF], "there were eight of the Turners" [ToF] and "the Torch Navy had just ordered its first trio of all-up destroyers" [ToF]
And "seven of the John Brown-class and eight of the newer Nat Turner-class. The John Brown-class were modernized conventional frigates while the Nat Turner-class were the more fancy hyper-capable Shrike equivalents" [CoG]

In addition during SoS it's methioned that d'Arezzo understands that Torch "negotiation with both use and the tPeeps for heavier ships. Even 'obsolete' Allied designs are as good as anything Mesa or Manpower might have" [SoS]

And that was before "Luis Roszak handed Torch the heavy cruiser Spartacus and all the other captured warships which had surrendered to him after the Battle of Torch" [CoG]

Of course the captured PNE ships were "earmarked for substantial upgrading courtesy of Haven, but until that process had been completed, the Turners were much better training platforms and combat units in almost every respect." [CoG]

So even before they got the windfall of captured ships Torch was already looking to expand past frigates. Ordering some new build destroyers and apparently nosing around for deals on Haven or Manticore warships going surplus.



In 1921, Hauptman was building 3 Destroyers for Torch, in a similar manner as to how they built the 15 Frigates. Unfortunately, we were never told if they were delivered prior to OB.

Also, the EX-PRN ships gifted to Torch have hidden suicide devices on them, planted by the Malign. As of last known, these have not been found.
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Stupid idea that David is going to hate.
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:17 pm

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Theemile wrote:In 1921, Hauptman was building 3 Destroyers for Torch, in a similar manner as to how they built the 15 Frigates. Unfortunately, we were never told if they were delivered prior to OB.

Also, the EX-PRN ships gifted to Torch have hidden suicide devices on them, planted by the Malign. As of last known, these have not been found.

Thanks. I'd thought the destroyer contract went to Hauptman, but wasn't finding where that was said.

And yes, there is that small little insignificant issue with the ex-PNE ships. This is one gift horse whose mouth (and every other part) should really be looked in most carefully :D
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Re: Stupid idea that David is going to hate.
Post by Theemile   » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:18 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Theemile wrote:In 1921, Hauptman was building 3 Destroyers for Torch, in a similar manner as to how they built the 15 Frigates. Unfortunately, we were never told if they were delivered prior to OB.

Also, the EX-PRN ships gifted to Torch have hidden suicide devices on them, planted by the Malign. As of last known, these have not been found.

Thanks. I'd thought the destroyer contract went to Hauptman, but wasn't finding where that was said.

And yes, there is that small little insignificant issue with the ex-PNE ships. This is one gift horse whose mouth (and every other part) should really be looked in most carefully :D


One question never answered was the disposition of the other ships captured at Torch. If memory serves, 18 ex-SLN DDs and 5 CLs in addition to the 5 Mars-C heavy cruisers we know were donated. Chances are some of the surviving CLs were ex-SS designs. If 2 CLs were Havenite, that would eave 3 SLN designs

Which leaves a force of SLN designs identical to Rozack's original force - 3 CLs and 18 DDs (Pretty much 1 full flotillia). Did Rozack keep those? they are SLN designs he could "hide" Or are they RTN?

Assuming the RTN had enough spacers to man the 3 ordered destroyers and all their frigates, they should have ~2500-3000 spacers at the middle of 1921

Each Mars requires ~1000 crew, a CL usually carries 450, and a DD usually carries ~300 crewmen.

Just manning the 7 Ex-Havenite ships would require close to 5500 men, the other 21 ships would require around 7 thousand additional spacers. Or a total of 12500 men. The RTN would need to expand by 5-6x their current size to man their "possible" current inventory.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Stupid idea that David is going to hate.
Post by n7axw   » Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:58 pm

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Given that Torch is relatively wealthy and is experiencing a constant increase in population, recruiting people to serve in its navy shouldn't be a problem. In addition, at this time they already have a core of experienced personnel to serve as trainers and can import more from friendly powers at need.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Stupid idea that David is going to hate.
Post by Theemile   » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:07 pm

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n7axw wrote:Given that Torch is relatively wealthy and is experiencing a constant increase in population, recruiting people to serve in its navy shouldn't be a problem. In addition, at this time they already have a core of experienced personnel to serve as trainers and can import more from friendly powers at need.

Don

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Torch's Growth is currently about 10 million a year, most with little to no formal education. Most of the RTN senior naval leadership has come from Manticore, Haven and Beowulf, all of which are gearing up for the fight with the SL - so they will be limited how much of their trained personnel they can give to Torch in the near term.

Don't forget, Torch got it's independence in 1919, and only 3 years have elapsed since then. It's starting population was not that big (only in the low Millions). Torch with it's pharmaceutical base has the ability to make lots of money, and it is currently making a good fraction of it's potential, but most of that is being pumped into infrastructure, medical and education - the building blocks to make a prosperous future for the planet

In ~10 years Torch will have proper education systems in place for the stream of wayward children it will continue to attract, and be able to direct those who have the potential into the correct professions - which includes the armed forces. In addition, a fair portion of the ex-slaves and slave decendants that are currently serving in the BSDF, RMN and RHN will probably resign their current posts and take their skills and experience to the RTN.

But for now, growth will be slow - the RTN won't just be able to grow 6x overnight without placing thousands of people in positions they are not ready for.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Stupid idea that David is going to hate.
Post by pappilon   » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:46 pm

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Theemile wrote:Torch's Growth is currently about 10 million a year, most with little to no formal education. Most of the RTN senior naval leadership has come from Manticore, Haven and Beowulf, all of which are gearing up for the fight with the SL - so they will be limited how much of their trained personnel they can give to Torch in the near term.

Don't forget, Torch got it's independence in 1919, and only 3 years have elapsed since then. It's starting population was not that big (only in the low Millions). Torch with it's pharmaceutical base has the ability to make lots of money, and it is currently making a good fraction of it's potential, but most of that is being pumped into infrastructure, medical and education - the building blocks to make a prosperous future for the planet

In ~10 years Torch will have proper education systems in place for the stream of wayward children it will continue to attract, and be able to direct those who have the potential into the correct professions - which includes the armed forces. In addition, a fair portion of the ex-slaves and slave decendants that are currently serving in the BSDF, RMN and RHN will probably resign their current posts and take their skills and experience to the RTN.

But for now, growth will be slow - the RTN won't just be able to grow 6x overnight without placing thousands of people in positions they are not ready for.



And most of the immigrants with naval experience are non-coms and not officers. IIRC, Thandi was bemoaning the lack of experience in command positions. She had the most and she was a Marine LT.
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