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Stupid idea that David is going to hate.

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Re: Stupid idea that David is going to hate.
Post by saber964   » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:03 pm

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pappilon wrote:
Theemile wrote:Torch's Growth is currently about 10 million a year, most with little to no formal education. Most of the RTN senior naval leadership has come from Manticore, Haven and Beowulf, all of which are gearing up for the fight with the SL - so they will be limited how much of their trained personnel they can give to Torch in the near term.

Don't forget, Torch got it's independence in 1919, and only 3 years have elapsed since then. It's starting population was not that big (only in the low Millions). Torch with it's pharmaceutical base has the ability to make lots of money, and it is currently making a good fraction of it's potential, but most of that is being pumped into infrastructure, medical and education - the building blocks to make a prosperous future for the planet

In ~10 years Torch will have proper education systems in place for the stream of wayward children it will continue to attract, and be able to direct those who have the potential into the correct professions - which includes the armed forces. In addition, a fair portion of the ex-slaves and slave decendants that are currently serving in the BSDF, RMN and RHN will probably resign their current posts and take their skills and experience to the RTN.

But for now, growth will be slow - the RTN won't just be able to grow 6x overnight without placing thousands of people in positions they are not ready for.



And most of the immigrants with naval experience are non-coms and not officers. IIRC, Thandi was bemoaning the lack of experience in command positions. She had the most and she was a Marine LT.


Yes and no on that question. Some of the immigrants to Torch had some command skills just no enough of them. Also the SEM and RH were sending technical and military advisors. They were also probably offering military aid packages too. Remember HMTS Spartacus she was a Mars-A design with that problematic reactor. Bet you the RHN offered to totally upgrade her and the rest of the captured PNE ships as part of a military assistance package.
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Re: Stupid idea that David is going to hate.
Post by Theemile   » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:31 pm

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saber964 wrote:
pappilon wrote:

And most of the immigrants with naval experience are non-coms and not officers. IIRC, Thandi was bemoaning the lack of experience in command positions. She had the most and she was a Marine LT.


Yes and no on that question. Some of the immigrants to Torch had some command skills just no enough of them. Also the SEM and RH were sending technical and military advisors. They were also probably offering military aid packages too. Remember HMTS Spartacus she was a Mars-A design with that problematic reactor. Bet you the RHN offered to totally upgrade her and the rest of the captured PNE ships as part of a military assistance package.


Yes, but if you remember from Cauldron, both Haven and Manticore sent only some dozens of low and mid level officers. we are not talking about the 10's of thousands of RMN sailors in Grayson service, but only a few.

Haven is rebuilding the ex-PRNiE ships, but we are only at a point less than 1 year after they were captured. Everything still needed to be arranged, the ships ferried back to Haven, the ships slotted into busy wartime repair facilities, then returned. All while Haven and Manticore started at war, then shifted to being allied and at war with the SLN. And Torch is a best a secondary concern.
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Stupid idea that David is going to hate.
Post by Lord Skimper   » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:36 pm

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Your sting ship would be better as a sting pod. How about an Eight missile Mk16 missile pod with a Ghost rider missile in place of the Apollo have it with the impeller nodes exposed so it can use it's wedge without killing the missiles or pod. Can do everything a Ghost Rider can do, slightly more visible and armed with 8 Mk16 missiles it is much better than this sting ship idea or anything less than an LAC and in some ways even better than that. Unlike a normal pod it can move and it has the best sensor suite in the Honorverse.
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Re: Stupid idea that David is going to hate.
Post by Theemile   » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:02 am

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Lord Skimper wrote:Your sting ship would be better as a sting pod. How about an Eight missile Mk16 missile pod with a Ghost rider missile in place of the Apollo have it with the impeller nodes exposed so it can use it's wedge without killing the missiles or pod. Can do everything a Ghost Rider can do, slightly more visible and armed with 8 Mk16 missiles it is much better than this sting ship idea or anything less than an LAC and in some ways even better than that. Unlike a normal pod it can move and it has the best sensor suite in the Honorverse.


Unfortunately, David already sank a knife in the back of autonomous or propelled pods some years ago. But you are essentially correct, the Ghost Rider drone already is the eyes my idea had, but better. The other 2\3rds are firepower and most importantly, a presence. Just seeing another escort will scare off run of the mill pirates.
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Stupid idea that David is going to hate.
Post by Weird Harold   » Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:03 pm

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Theemile wrote:... Just seeing another escort will scare off run of the mill pirates.


If that were true, convoy escorts would routinely deploy EW Drones mimicking additional warships in high risk areas. That would provide a deterrent to timid pirates and make identifying the actual escort more challenging to an over-confident pirate.
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Re: Stupid idea that David is going to hate.
Post by Theemile   » Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:49 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
Theemile wrote:... Just seeing another escort will scare off run of the mill pirates.


If that were true, convoy escorts would routinely deploy EW Drones mimicking additional warships in high risk areas. That would provide a deterrent to timid pirates and make identifying the actual escort more challenging to an over-confident pirate.


In peace time, such expenditures are expensive and to be avoided. Remember when the Gauntlet went up against the 4 pirates at Tyberian? Oversteegen didn't deploy any drones until the Pirates he could see were non-communicative and pursuing him aggeessively.

During war time, the first thing any CA would have done when entering the system is chuck out a close in array of drones, followed by a clutch of drones roaring down the ships's intended path to check out the destination, and then a couple system drones would be kicked out to do overwatch at the hyperlimit. But only some of those drones will be recovered and they are expensive - without cause, a captain will get called to task for misusing them in every system he entered.

Before Ghost Rider tech, drones which mimicked ships burned out in a few minutes (~10 I believe) and required them to be constantly refreshed. After Ghost Rider became cheap and plentiful, it could be that such measures as you described were taken regularly for important convoys- we really didn't see any on camera Convoys after IEH, but we do know that the Mantes used E-warfare drones extensively during WoH against the Andermani - after Honor gave the order to do anything to avoid confrontation.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Stupid idea that David is going to hate.
Post by Weird Harold   » Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:32 pm

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Theemile wrote:Before Ghost Rider tech, drones which mimicked ships burned out in a few minutes (~10 I believe) and required them to be constantly refreshed. After Ghost Rider became cheap and plentiful, it could be that such measures as you described were taken regularly for important convoys- we really didn't see any on camera Convoys after IEH, but we do know that the Mantes used E-warfare drones extensively during WoH against the Andermani - after Honor gave the order to do anything to avoid confrontation.


Actually, I don't think it would have been economical until the advent of Lorelei Drones -- which are apparently free-flying and of relatively long duration. EW Decoy drones earlier than Lorelei apparently had to remain fairly close to the deploying ship.

Something like Lorelei that could be deployed to fly formation with a convoy when exiting a Grav Wave to cross a dangerous stretch like the Selker Rift and then retrieved for reuse before entering the next Grav Wave. Set to mimic a poorly stealthed low-power wedge they should be able to last for long enough for most rift passages or traverse of a hyper-limit to port.

Make the simple and cheap enough and every merchant ship could carry one (or two) and Pirates would never be sure a ship wasn't escorted by a real warship.
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Re: Stupid idea that David is going to hate.
Post by ldwechsler   » Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:36 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
Theemile wrote:Before Ghost Rider tech, drones which mimicked ships burned out in a few minutes (~10 I believe) and required them to be constantly refreshed. After Ghost Rider became cheap and plentiful, it could be that such measures as you described were taken regularly for important convoys- we really didn't see any on camera Convoys after IEH, but we do know that the Mantes used E-warfare drones extensively during WoH against the Andermani - after Honor gave the order to do anything to avoid confrontation.


Actually, I don't think it would have been economical until the advent of Lorelei Drones -- which are apparently free-flying and of relatively long duration. EW Decoy drones earlier than Lorelei apparently had to remain fairly close to the deploying ship.

Something like Lorelei that could be deployed to fly formation with a convoy when exiting a Grav Wave to cross a dangerous stretch like the Selker Rift and then retrieved for reuse before entering the next Grav Wave. Set to mimic a poorly stealthed low-power wedge they should be able to last for long enough for most rift passages or traverse of a hyper-limit to port.

Make the simple and cheap enough and every merchant ship could carry one (or two) and Pirates would never be sure a ship wasn't escorted by a real warship.


The most important thing for pirates is a safe base. Silesia was great for them because there were a lot of corrupt officials who did whatever they want and raked in their percentage.

That will, at least over a bit of time, disappear as Manticore and Anderman fully take over. Pirates will die when caught and might be pushed to implicate others. Perhaps getting treecats involved would be very useful.

Just ask the pirate, "Do you get help from....?" and you've got a nice lie detector.

Piracy might become more prevalent in the old League. But even there, the different fleets could be used against them. And with safe havens disappearing, piracy would face more problems.

The best mobile new device would be a way to "tag" pirate ships. When a merchant ship is first approached a drone could find some way to mark the ship...like a lojack used in the US. Naval vessels could press a few buttons and find out a ship was tagged by three ships that way.

Can you imagine a small pirate fleet like we saw out, I think, Marsh, suddenly running into HH's fleet and being told to surrender or die?

Of course, they did try that but some other pirates might not have the leverage.
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Re: Stupid idea that David is going to hate.
Post by Lord Skimper   » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:36 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
Theemile wrote:Before Ghost Rider tech, drones which mimicked ships burned out in a few minutes (~10 I believe) and required them to be constantly refreshed. After Ghost Rider became cheap and plentiful, it could be that such measures as you described were taken regularly for important convoys- we really didn't see any on camera Convoys after IEH, but we do know that the Mantes used E-warfare drones extensively during WoH against the Andermani - after Honor gave the order to do anything to avoid confrontation.


Actually, I don't think it would have been economical until the advent of Lorelei Drones -- which are apparently free-flying and of relatively long duration. EW Decoy drones earlier than Lorelei apparently had to remain fairly close to the deploying ship.

Something like Lorelei that could be deployed to fly formation with a convoy when exiting a Grav Wave to cross a dangerous stretch like the Selker Rift and then retrieved for reuse before entering the next Grav Wave. Set to mimic a poorly stealthed low-power wedge they should be able to last for long enough for most rift passages or traverse of a hyper-limit to port.

Make the simple and cheap enough and every merchant ship could carry one (or two) and Pirates would never be sure a ship wasn't escorted by a real warship.


That was the Trojan idea, you never new if the Cargo ship was unarmed or fully armed.
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Re: Stupid idea that David is going to hate.
Post by Fox2!   » Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:14 pm

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cthia wrote:
Unfortunately, just like Killer Bees, these may die after one sting. Yet the target is also doomed.


Just like the IJN after the loss of most of their carriers, carrier aircraft and experienced pilots, about all they are good for is suicide missions. Yamoto and Mushi werein their way to beach themselves off Okinawa as fortresses when they were sunk. They (at least the Captains) knew they were on a suicide mission.
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