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How To Abandon Ship?

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Re: How To Abandon Ship?
Post by stewart   » Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:18 pm

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[quote="cthia"]Pods? Admiral Gogunov targeted escape pods with Javelin?

-----------------

Keep in mind that Gogunov was captured alive (although possibly not uninjured) -- although reportedly last seen in RMN custody, it will be interesting to find out if he would be returned to Hypatian custody for trial since that's where his Deneb violation was committed....

With Prolong, would a death penalty be preferable to life without parole in solitary ?

thinking Spandau prison treatment...

-- Stewart
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Re: How To Abandon Ship?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:46 pm

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cthia wrote:Pods? Admiral Gogunov targeted escape pods with Javelin? Talk about a ringside seat for the fireworks. Can you imagine being in a pod after realizing they'd just been targeted? IINM, their beacons is what enabled such small targets to be locked. In such an event, I wonder if deactivating the beacons -- if possible, by the occupants -- would save one or more of them? It seems deactivation would be possible in extremely hostile environments, like so. Of course, they had no idea the Sollies were murderous bastards. Wait, what? At any rate, just wondering if the capability is there, and hoping a few of them realized what was happening and shut off the beacon. But then, how'd they know when to reactivate it? Wow, what a rock-and-a-hard-place of a time to be stuck in a pod.
Would the survivors on the pod even know it was being targeted?

Life pods can't have all that great sensors - nor room for a tactical section. Now other surviving ships might be able to determine the pods had been targeted and radio them a warning - but otherwise the pods occupants otherwise would probably be blissfully unaware that someone was committing a war crime right up until the missiles arrived and pods started blowing up.
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Re: How To Abandon Ship?
Post by cthia   » Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:27 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:Pods? Admiral Gogunov targeted escape pods with Javelin? Talk about a ringside seat for the fireworks. Can you imagine being in a pod after realizing they'd just been targeted? IINM, their beacons is what enabled such small targets to be locked. In such an event, I wonder if deactivating the beacons -- if possible, by the occupants -- would save one or more of them? It seems deactivation would be possible in extremely hostile environments, like so. Of course, they had no idea the Sollies were murderous bastards. Wait, what? At any rate, just wondering if the capability is there, and hoping a few of them realized what was happening and shut off the beacon. But then, how'd they know when to reactivate it? Wow, what a rock-and-a-hard-place of a time to be stuck in a pod.
Would the survivors on the pod even know it was being targeted?

Life pods can't have all that great sensors - nor room for a tactical section. Now other surviving ships might be able to determine the pods had been targeted and radio them a warning - but otherwise the pods occupants otherwise would probably be blissfully unaware that someone was committing a war crime right up until the missiles arrived and pods started blowing up.

You're probably right about all of that, and I considered it as well. But I assume they have some sensors, especially life boats. And if they saw two or three pods destroyed by missiles it couldn't have been a coincidence. But then, by the time they were targeted there was most likely way too much separation between pods. Then again, why would pods even need sensors? It isn't like they have any control over their flight path???

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: How To Abandon Ship?
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:11 am

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Don't forget to unplug your skinsuit's waste line from the ship's waste collection system or its going to hurt coming out.
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Re: How To Abandon Ship?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:31 am

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cthia wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Would the survivors on the pod even know it was being targeted?

Life pods can't have all that great sensors - nor room for a tactical section. Now other surviving ships might be able to determine the pods had been targeted and radio them a warning - but otherwise the pods occupants otherwise would probably be blissfully unaware that someone was committing a war crime right up until the missiles arrived and pods started blowing up.

You're probably right about all of that, and I considered it as well. But I assume they have some sensors, especially life boats. And if they saw two or three pods destroyed by missiles it couldn't have been a coincidence. But then, by the time they were targeted there was most likely way too much separation between pods. Then again, why would pods even need sensors? It isn't like they have any control over their flight path???

They must have control over their flight path because when discussing Stennis's plan to desert in HAE it says
Honor Among Enemies wrote:The number of people who could expect to get out of a ship lost to battle damage would be low, but someone almost always made it—unless the damned ship blew up, of course—and ships could be lost to other causes. That was what the pods were for. In deep space, they were little more than life support bubbles fitted with transponders which both sides were supposedly duty bound to pick up after an engagement, but they were also designed to be capable of independent atmospheric entry if there should happen to be a habitable planet handy when disaster struck.
They wouldn't be able to safely reenter the atmosphere without some ability to maneuver. (Because there's no assurance they'd be ejected in a survivable trajectory) So presumably they've got enough sensors to see a planet if ejected within, say 5 or 10 lightseconds of it and shape a course towards it - plus determine suitable landing site and reentry trajectory.

But they probably don't have the FTL grav sensors you'd need to track incoming missile fire or the computers to compute its likely target. Like you said the first they might know they were being targeted is when other pods start dying (I'd assume the sensors are good enough to see relatively nearby emergency transponders). And if all the pods are targeted in a single salvo they'd hardly have time to realize what was happening...
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Re: How To Abandon Ship?
Post by cthia   » Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:13 pm

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cthia wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Would the survivors on the pod even know it was being targeted?

Life pods can't have all that great sensors - nor room for a tactical section. Now other surviving ships might be able to determine the pods had been targeted and radio them a warning - but otherwise the pods occupants otherwise would probably be blissfully unaware that someone was committing a war crime right up until the missiles arrived and pods started blowing up.

You're probably right about all of that, and I considered it as well. But I assume they have some sensors, especially life boats. And if they saw two or three pods destroyed by missiles it couldn't have been a coincidence. But then, by the time they were targeted there was most likely way too much separation between pods. Then again, why would pods even need sensors? It isn't like they have any control over their flight path???

Jonathan_S wrote:They must have control over their flight path because when discussing Stennis's plan to desert in HAE it says
Honor Among Enemies wrote:The number of people who could expect to get out of a ship lost to battle damage would be low, but someone almost always made it—unless the damned ship blew up, of course—and ships could be lost to other causes. That was what the pods were for. In deep space, they were little more than life support bubbles fitted with transponders which both sides were supposedly duty bound to pick up after an engagement, but they were also designed to be capable of independent atmospheric entry if there should happen to be a habitable planet handy when disaster struck.
They wouldn't be able to safely reenter the atmosphere without some ability to maneuver. (Because there's no assurance they'd be ejected in a survivable trajectory) So presumably they've got enough sensors to see a planet if ejected within, say 5 or 10 lightseconds of it and shape a course towards it - plus determine suitable landing site and reentry trajectory.

But they probably don't have the FTL grav sensors you'd need to track incoming missile fire or the computers to compute its likely target. Like you said the first they might know they were being targeted is when other pods start dying (I'd assume the sensors are good enough to see relatively nearby emergency transponders). And if all the pods are targeted in a single salvo they'd hardly have time to realize what was happening...

Indeed, to all you've said. I recall, even before my post, that pods have the ability of independent reentry. So I don't know what I was thinking as to how they accomplish that. As Shannon would say, "Oops." Independent reentry has always interested me as well, because I wouldn't think the average spacer can handle computing trajectories and handling pod control, but then, the passage does say "capable" of "independent" reentry. I always assume a pod can be [coached coaxed] into the proper trajectory by the proper authorities of the planet.

And then there's the question of actually landing the pods.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: How To Abandon Ship?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:37 pm

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cthia wrote:Indeed, to all you've said. I recall, even before my post, that pods have the ability of independent reentry. So I don't know what I was thinking as to how they accomplish that. As Shannon would say, "Oops." Independent reentry has always interested me as well, because I wouldn't think the average spacer can handle computing trajectories and handling pod control, but then, the passage does say "capable" of "independent" reentry. I always assume a pod can be [coached coaxed] into the proper trajectory by the proper authorities of the planet.

And then there's the question of actually landing the pods.

Well countergrav makes the whole landing thing a heck of a lot easier. So an autonomous self-landing capability should be way easier for them than it is for us today.

And reaction thrusters in the Honorverse seem to have ludicrously more power than anything we've got today, so getting the pod moving towards the planet shouldn't be too hard.

That combination means you hardly care about mass compared to today's space ships; so an emergency pod could have a tough metallic ceramic heat shield far heavier than anything we've ever used. And grav plates can cancel a lot of acceleration; so you could theoretically come in a lot faster (higher temperature and more Gs of deceleration) than even the Apollo capsules did. Though the reaction engines mean you don't really need to. They should be able to cancel out a lot of the velocity before you hit atmosphere.

An open field large enough for a vertical landing shouldn't be too hard to confirm from space - even with fairly rudimentary sensors by the standards of another couple millennia in the future.



As for finding the planet and determining if it's habitable, now that I think more about it I'd actually guess the pods would 'cheat' on that. They'd be loaded with a database of habitable (or otherwise) planets from the ship and the ship would also routinely update attached pods with its current location. So when the pods ejected they'd know roughly where they were relative to any of that system's planetary bodies and whether any habitable ones were within range. Heck, there's no reason the database couldn't contain entire surface maps for the habitable planets[1] with especially suitable landing areas already identified.

This isn't Star Trek where ships are always exploring strange new worlds. With a few very rare exceptions they're visiting (or fighting in) well surveyed systems.

[1] If for some reason pods didn't have enough storage to carry that for every system anywhere near the ship's operating area the ship could automatically and routinely download them a relevant subset from a master database
Last edited by Jonathan_S on Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How To Abandon Ship?
Post by cthia   » Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:57 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:Indeed, to all you've said. I recall, even before my post, that pods have the ability of independent reentry. So I don't know what I was thinking as to how they accomplish that. As Shannon would say, "Oops." Independent reentry has always interested me as well, because I wouldn't think the average spacer can handle computing trajectories and handling pod control, but then, the passage does say "capable" of "independent" reentry. I always assume a pod can be [coached coaxed] into the proper trajectory by the proper authorities of the planet.

And then there's the question of actually landing the pods.

Well countergrav makes the whole landing thing a heck of a lot easier.

And reaction thrusters in the Honorverse seem to have ludicrously more power than anything we've got today, so getting the pod moving towards the planet shouldn't be too hard.

That combination means you hardly care about mass compared to today's space ships; so an emergency pod could have a tough metallic ceramic heat shield far heavier than anything we've ever used. And grav plates can cancel a lot of acceleration; so you could theoretically come in a lot faster (higher temperature and more Gs of deceleration) than even the Apollo capsules did. Though the reaction engines mean you don't really need to. They should be able to cancel out a lot of the velocity before you hit atmosphere.

An open field large enough for a vertical landing shouldn't be too hard to confirm from space - even with fairly rudimentary sensors by the standards of another couple millennia in the future.



As for finding the planet and determining if it's habitable, now that I think more about it I'd actually guess the pods would 'cheat' on that. They'd be loaded with a database of habitable (or otherwise) planets from the ship and the ship would also routinely update attached pods with its current location. So when the pods ejected they'd know roughly where they were relative to any of that system's planetary bodies and whether any habitable ones were within range. Heck, there's no reason the database couldn't contain entire surface maps for the habitable planets[1] with especially suitable landing areas already identified.

This isn't Star Trek where ships are always exploring strange new worlds. With a few very rare exceptions they're visiting (or fighting in) well surveyed systems.

[1] If for some reason pods didn't have enough storage to carry that for every system anywhere near the ship's operating area the ship could automatically and routinely download them a relevant subset from a master database

Very informative and thoughtful post. I do have qualms about the particular word you use to describe landing a pod though, "easier." In the case of a complete novice -- such as a, circumstantially, lone civilian -- who just happens to be aboard, and by implication is completely oblivious to such things, "easier" is a misnomer.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: How To Abandon Ship?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:22 pm

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cthia wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Well countergrav makes the whole landing thing a heck of a lot easier.

And reaction thrusters in the Honorverse seem to have ludicrously more power than anything we've got today, so getting the pod moving towards the planet shouldn't be too hard.

That combination means you hardly care about mass compared to today's space ships; so an emergency pod could have a tough metallic ceramic heat shield far heavier than anything we've ever used. And grav plates can cancel a lot of acceleration; so you could theoretically come in a lot faster (higher temperature and more Gs of deceleration) than even the Apollo capsules did. Though the reaction engines mean you don't really need to. They should be able to cancel out a lot of the velocity before you hit atmosphere.

An open field large enough for a vertical landing shouldn't be too hard to confirm from space - even with fairly rudimentary sensors by the standards of another couple millennia in the future.



As for finding the planet and determining if it's habitable, now that I think more about it I'd actually guess the pods would 'cheat' on that. They'd be loaded with a database of habitable (or otherwise) planets from the ship and the ship would also routinely update attached pods with its current location. So when the pods ejected they'd know roughly where they were relative to any of that system's planetary bodies and whether any habitable ones were within range. Heck, there's no reason the database couldn't contain entire surface maps for the habitable planets[1] with especially suitable landing areas already identified.

This isn't Star Trek where ships are always exploring strange new worlds. With a few very rare exceptions they're visiting (or fighting in) well surveyed systems.

[1] If for some reason pods didn't have enough storage to carry that for every system anywhere near the ship's operating area the ship could automatically and routinely download them a relevant subset from a master database

Very informative and thoughtful post. I do have qualms about the particular word you use to describe landing a pod though, "easier." In the case of a complete novice -- such as a, circumstantially, lone civilian -- who just happens to be aboard, and by implication is completely oblivious to such things, "easier" is a misnomer.

Looking back I should have more clearly expressed my thought.

I don't think the pod occupants are piloting it down.

I was thinking that having counter grav makes it easier for an automated system to safely autonomously land an escape pod -- with no help from occupants or the ground.
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Re: How To Abandon Ship?
Post by cthia   » Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:23 am

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cthia wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Well countergrav makes the whole landing thing a heck of a lot easier.

And reaction thrusters in the Honorverse seem to have ludicrously more power than anything we've got today, so getting the pod moving towards the planet shouldn't be too hard.

That combination means you hardly care about mass compared to today's space ships; so an emergency pod could have a tough metallic ceramic heat shield far heavier than anything we've ever used. And grav plates can cancel a lot of acceleration; so you could theoretically come in a lot faster (higher temperature and more Gs of deceleration) than even the Apollo capsules did. Though the reaction engines mean you don't really need to. They should be able to cancel out a lot of the velocity before you hit atmosphere.

An open field large enough for a vertical landing shouldn't be too hard to confirm from space - even with fairly rudimentary sensors by the standards of another couple millennia in the future.



As for finding the planet and determining if it's habitable, now that I think more about it I'd actually guess the pods would 'cheat' on that. They'd be loaded with a database of habitable (or otherwise) planets from the ship and the ship would also routinely update attached pods with its current location. So when the pods ejected they'd know roughly where they were relative to any of that system's planetary bodies and whether any habitable ones were within range. Heck, there's no reason the database couldn't contain entire surface maps for the habitable planets[1] with especially suitable landing areas already identified.

This isn't Star Trek where ships are always exploring strange new worlds. With a few very rare exceptions they're visiting (or fighting in) well surveyed systems.

[1] If for some reason pods didn't have enough storage to carry that for every system anywhere near the ship's operating area the ship could automatically and routinely download them a relevant subset from a master database

Very informative and thoughtful post. I do have qualms about the particular word you use to describe landing a pod though, "easier." In the case of a complete novice -- such as a, circumstantially, lone civilian -- who just happens to be aboard, and by implication is completely oblivious to such things, "easier" is a misnomer.

Jonathan_S wrote:Looking back I should have more clearly expressed my thought.

I don't think the pod occupants are piloting it down.

I was thinking that having counter grav makes it easier for an automated system to safely autonomously land an escape pod -- with no help from occupants or the ground.

Well, that thought concurs with my original thinking before my post, but I dismissed it after the little voice on my shoulder reminded me of the rumors of the author's decree of no automated piloting.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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