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Command roles for engineers [SPOILER for Shadow of Victory]

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Re: Command roles for engineers [SPOILER for Shadow of Victo
Post by Eagleeye   » Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:12 am

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Theemile wrote:
I would think that a letter in your personnel jacket from no less than the Salamander herself (who reinvented the modern Crusher), describing how you icily, singlehandedly took command of damage control in the aftermath of a devastating ship to ship battle, and kept the ship patched up until help arrived - essentially running engineering, SAR, and damage control, both before you could get approval from command authority and afterward, may go a long way towards overlooking crusher requirements for early commands.


As far as I can remember, Honor reinvented the crusher only after her return from Hell, though I admit that after 1st Hancock any commendation or damnation letter from her counted heavily even before her "vacation" in the PRH (*scnr*) in the eyes of BuPers.
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Re: Command roles for engineers [SPOILER for Shadow of Victo
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:25 am

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Eagleeye wrote:As far as I can remember, Honor reinvented the crusher only after her return from Hell, though I admit that after 1st Hancock any commendation or damnation letter from her counted heavily even before her "vacation" in the PRH (*scnr*) in the eyes of BuPers.

Nope. The "crusher" or Advanced Tactical Course (ATC) has existed before OBS - Honor had freshly graduated from it before being assigned to command (the first) Fearless.

What Honor did when she was in command of that school, post Hell, was to revamp the curriculum some and provide more emphasis on alliance navies and how their (usually lesser) ship capabilities affected tactics. (Plus of course added the dinners and post diner tactical simulations). But the course itself was long established.
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Re: Command roles for engineers [SPOILER for Shadow of Victo
Post by Theemile   » Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:34 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Eagleeye wrote:As far as I can remember, Honor reinvented the crusher only after her return from Hell, though I admit that after 1st Hancock any commendation or damnation letter from her counted heavily even before her "vacation" in the PRH (*scnr*) in the eyes of BuPers.

Nope. The "crusher" or Advanced Tactical Course (ATC) has existed before OBS - Honor had freshly graduated from it before being assigned to command (the first) Fearless.

What Honor did when she was in command of that school, post Hell, was to revamp the curriculum some and provide more emphasis on alliance navies and how their (usually lesser) ship capabilities affected tactics. (Plus of course added the dinners and post diner tactical simulations). But the course itself was long established.


Hence my reinvention comment. She's the one who tweaked it to the new levels it is at today. She didn't create it - she didn't make it the standard test for ship captains, but she is the one who remade the curriculum to what it is today.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Command roles for engineers [SPOILER for Shadow of Victo
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:43 pm

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Theemile wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Nope. The "crusher" or Advanced Tactical Course (ATC) has existed before OBS - Honor had freshly graduated from it before being assigned to command (the first) Fearless.

What Honor did when she was in command of that school, post Hell, was to revamp the curriculum some and provide more emphasis on alliance navies and how their (usually lesser) ship capabilities affected tactics. (Plus of course added the dinners and post diner tactical simulations). But the course itself was long established.


Hence my reinvention comment. She's the one who tweaked it to the new levels it is at today. She didn't create it - she didn't make it the standard test for ship captains, but she is the one who remade the curriculum to what it is today.

Apologies. I read too quickly and missed the crucial "re" in "reinvent". :o

"Reinvent" might still be a little too strong, but I wouldn't have quibbled like that if I'd correctly read what you both wrote.
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Re: Command roles for engineers [SPOILER for Shadow of Victo
Post by glott   » Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:29 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
glott wrote:I don't think Ginger had to be formally appointed acting XO. IMHO, she become the acting XO because she was next in the chain of command after Commander FitzGerald.


Actually, I think Naomi Kaplan, the Tac Officer, was next in the chain. I don't recall the full complement of officers on Hexapuma. But, IIRC there is textev that Ginger was tapped as acting XO because she was the senior healthy officer, not because she was next in the chain of command.


Sorry I didn't reply sooner to this post, real life intrudes at the darnest times. :)

But I'm afraid, I have to disagree with you. I've been re-reading tSoS and came across this passage. It's where Captain Terekhov was briefing his senior officers after his first meeting with Admiral Khumalo.

The Shadow of Saganami, Chapter Eleven wrote:
"From the economic, astrographic, and military perspectives, Lynx is the real strategic chokepoint of the cluster, as far as the Star Kingdom is concerned. But from the immediate political perspective, Spindle, where the Constitutional Convention is meeting, is at least equally critical. And, the need to maintain a visible presence in the Cluster's inhabited star systems is yet another magnet drawing our available strength away from Lynx. Under the circumstances, bearing in mind that Lynx can be reinforced on short notice by Home Fleet, Admiral Khumalo's decided his short-term emphasis must be placed on supporting the political process of the Constitutional Convention and assisting the local planetary governments."

But what do you think he should be doing? FitzGerald wondered. Not that he even considered asking the question aloud.

"I can see why you wanted Naomi and Tad sitting in on this, Sir," Lewis said after a moment. "I'm not too clear on why I'm here, though."

"First, because you're my senior officer, after Ansten," Terekhov replied. "And, second, because unless I miss my guess, we're going to be pushing the ship's systems hard, without much in the way of outside support. Admiral Khumalo has three depot ships—four, counting the one stationed here—to support all of his units. At the moment, the others are assigned to Prairie, Montana, and Scarlet, to provide the maximum coverage for his patrol units. There are also ammunition ships at Montana and Prairie. Aside from that, however, we'll be essentially on our own for both maintenance and general logistics.

Italics the author. Bold mine.

So, Ginger was the next highest ranking officer after Ansten (I'd forgotten that was his first name :lol: ) FitzGerald and if she's in the chain of command at all—which she'd have to be, since later on she was the acting XO—she must have been the third-in-command at the time.

Now, I'm not trying to say that she would have fought the ship, so to speak, if command had devolved on her in the middle of a battle. I assume that if, say, both Captain Terekhov and Commander FitzGerald had both been knocked unconscious the senior tactical officer would take tactical control of the ship. Ginger, who would be at the Chief Engineer's battle stations position or busy with damage control and repairs, would be notified, that she was the senior conscious officer. But probably, the only tactical question she would have to answer was, "Do we try to break off or continue the action." And I'm not sure that actually is a tactical question.
*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*

"...the ability of an entrenched, bureaucratic military to ignore anything which challenges its fundamental working assumptions simply cannot be exaggerated." - David Weber
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Re: Command roles for engineers [SPOILER for Shadow of Victo
Post by saber964   » Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:23 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
Garth 2 wrote:So it doesn't seem like the RMN makes a distinction between career tracks and eventual positions


I pointed out earlier in this discussion that we are explicitly told the RMN rotates officers through command and staff, shipboard and ground-side, to keep them well-rounded.

Honor has done tours on the Weapons Development Board and Saganami Island in addition to her time on a bridge. The latter was associated with convalescence and rehab, but the WDB was a routine assignment, IIRC.



The WDB tour was for "Maternity" leave IIRC Samantha was pregnant which gave the Admiralty a chance to assign her to the WDB. IIRC she was assigned there for 8 months.
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Re: Command roles for engineers [SPOILER for Shadow of Victo
Post by ldwechsler   » Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:25 am

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saber964 wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:
I pointed out earlier in this discussion that we are explicitly told the RMN rotates officers through command and staff, shipboard and ground-side, to keep them well-rounded.

Honor has done tours on the Weapons Development Board and Saganami Island in addition to her time on a bridge. The latter was associated with convalescence and rehab, but the WDB was a routine assignment, IIRC.



The WDB tour was for "Maternity" leave IIRC Samantha was pregnant which gave the Admiralty a chance to assign her to the WDB. IIRC she was assigned there for 8 months.


Honor has been in the navy over 40 years and so have many others. Harkness seemed older than her in OBS so he might have a longer career.

How likely is it that people spend all that time on ships? I would guess that the lifers get times assigned to staff work. And since the Navy's headquarters on Manticore is something like 200 stories high, it is likely there are a lot of people assigned there.
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Re: Command roles for engineers [SPOILER for Shadow of Victo
Post by pappilon   » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:39 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
I pointed out earlier in this discussion that we are explicitly told the RMN rotates officers through command and staff, shipboard and ground-side, to keep them well-rounded.

Honor has done tours on the Weapons Development Board and Saganami Island in addition to her time on a bridge. The latter was associated with convalescence and rehab, but the WDB was a routine assignment, IIRC.



saber964 wrote:The WDB tour was for "Maternity" leave IIRC Samantha was pregnant which gave the Admiralty a chance to assign her to the WDB. IIRC she was assigned there for 8 months.


ldwechsler wrote:Honor has been in the navy over 40 years and so have many others. Harkness seemed older than her in OBS so he might have a longer career.

How likely is it that people spend all that time on ships? I would guess that the lifers get times assigned to staff work. And since the Navy's headquarters on Manticore is something like 200 stories high, it is likely there are a lot of people assigned there.


On repair yards, orbital stations, probably not a lot dirtside. And Admiral Cortez would not want Harkness working anywhere near HQ. Yes there are recruiting slots, training slots at Saganami and the tech and OCS schools, even at hq, but compared th the vast number of personnel there are not a lt of positions.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Re: Command roles for engineers [SPOILER for Shadow of Victo
Post by Theemile   » Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:37 pm

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pappilon wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:
I pointed out earlier in this discussion that we are explicitly told the RMN rotates officers through command and staff, shipboard and ground-side, to keep them well-rounded.

Honor has done tours on the Weapons Development Board and Saganami Island in addition to her time on a bridge. The latter was associated with convalescence and rehab, but the WDB was a routine assignment, IIRC.



saber964 wrote:The WDB tour was for "Maternity" leave IIRC Samantha was pregnant which gave the Admiralty a chance to assign her to the WDB. IIRC she was assigned there for 8 months.


ldwechsler wrote:Honor has been in the navy over 40 years and so have many others. Harkness seemed older than her in OBS so he might have a longer career.

How likely is it that people spend all that time on ships? I would guess that the lifers get times assigned to staff work. And since the Navy's headquarters on Manticore is something like 200 stories high, it is likely there are a lot of people assigned there.


On repair yards, orbital stations, probably not a lot dirtside. And Admiral Cortez would not want Harkness working anywhere near HQ. Yes there are recruiting slots, training slots at Saganami and the tech and OCS schools, even at hq, but compared th the vast number of personnel there are not a lt of positions.


You forgot staff positions. While still in space, they take you out of the normal ship commanders structure that many call "space".
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Command roles for engineers [SPOILER for Shadow of Victo
Post by saber964   » Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:44 pm

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Honor has spent most of her career in space. Except for professional development schools like ATC and PCO and probably NWC. She's spent probably 90% of her career in space. Her longest stint dirtside was when Janacek benched her to the academy.
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