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The only thing that MUST happen in Uncompromising Honor.

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Re: The only thing that MUST happen in Uncompromising Honor.
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:04 am

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ldwechsler wrote:There were two explosions. One was done by a Mesan security officer and the other by a disaffected seccie, native of Mesa.


There were three Nukes. An abandoned Seccie Tower, set by Zilwicki as a diversion. The self-destruct nuke under Gamma Center set off by Jack McBride. And the Green Pines Park set off by the demented seccie revolutionary.

The Green Pines Park was a target of last resort by the demented Seccie, but was originally planned as another "bloodless" diversion by Cachat and Zilwicki.

Anton is clearly responsible for two of the three explosions, since he disabled the tracking devices and planned to use them as diversions to cover the departure of the Torchese Intelligence Operatives.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: The only thing that MUST happen in Uncompromising Honor.
Post by quite possibly a cat   » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:31 am

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So as has been pointed out Green Pines in Anton's fault. Manticore can either hide the truth or throw someone under the bus.

Now on to throwing people under the bus. Manticore could throw Torch under the bus, but if they do they've thrown the loved ones of Anton and Victor under the bus. Anton and Victor can simply say "Nope, it was 100% Manticore and Haven. Also they did nuke Mesa from orbit." That seems like the sort of thing they would do to anyone who tried to throw their loved ones under the bus.

Manticore (and Haven) could also just throw the individual actors responsible under the bus. So this seems easy, just execute Victor and Anton via bus and call it a day. But... Victor and Anton had Honor's tacit approval. One of your military officers stops by an admiral and has a quick meeting before going off on a mission? Not exactly a rogue operation. Manticore could try and say Green Pines was rogue, but they approved the rest of it, but that looks seriously negligent, since they didn't really set or check mission parameters in any detail.

Or they could put Honor right next to Victor and Anton when the bus comes along.

Finally, if they do go the route of throwing people under the bus, they can't then protect those same people. If you protect them, you are giving tacit approval of their actions and basically become an accomplice. No fancy legal arguing will wash that away.

But even if that bus rolls over Anton, Honor and Victor that won't change the fact that it really looks like Manticore nuked the planet from orbit.
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Re: The only thing that MUST happen in Uncompromising Honor.
Post by kzt   » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:04 am

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It certainly is a fine kettle of fish, eh?
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Re: The only thing that MUST happen in Uncompromising Honor.
Post by JohnRoth   » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:16 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:There were two explosions. One was done by a Mesan security officer and the other by a disaffected seccie, native of Mesa.


There were three Nukes. An abandoned Seccie Tower, set by Zilwicki as a diversion. The self-destruct nuke under Gamma Center set off by Jack McBride. And the Green Pines Park set off by the demented seccie revolutionary.

The Green Pines Park was a target of last resort by the demented Seccie, but was originally planned as another "bloodless" diversion by Cachat and Zilwicki.

Anton is clearly responsible for two of the three explosions, since he disabled the tracking devices and planned to use them as diversions to cover the departure of the Torchese Intelligence Operatives.


Um, no. He didn't ask for a nuke, and if the seccies had suggested it he would have vetoed it. When it turned up on his doorstep with an intact tracking device, what was he supposed to do? Not disable the tracking device and let Mesan Intelligence (or whoever) find it? Tell them to take it back?
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Re: The only thing that MUST happen in Uncompromising Honor.
Post by JohnRoth   » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:17 am

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kzt wrote:It certainly is a fine kettle of fish, eh?


Yup.
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Re: The only thing that MUST happen in Uncompromising Honor.
Post by TangoLima   » Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:53 pm

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I believe clearing the SEM's name is a looong term goal.
As it stands now it will increase the tension and open
many plot possibilities for the next story arc.
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Re: The only thing that MUST happen in Uncompromising Honor.
Post by quite possibly a cat   » Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:53 pm

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JohnRoth wrote:Um, no. He didn't ask for a nuke, and if the seccies had suggested it he would have vetoed it. When it turned up on his doorstep with an intact tracking device, what was he supposed to do? Not disable the tracking device and let Mesan Intelligence (or whoever) find it? Tell them to take it back?
Yes, actually. Or just ignore it.

Alternatively, he could have dismantled it or disabled it. These are grav pinch fusion nukes. They aren't filled with radioactive nastiness.

Or he could have kept a hold of the nuke and not given it to a terrorist.

Honestly, anything that didn't end with nuking a bunch of civilians would be reasonably okay.
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Re: The only thing that MUST happen in Uncompromising Honor.
Post by n7axw   » Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:44 pm

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kzt does have a point about the need for responsibility. But as was pointed out earlier, the closest this gets to Manticore is the visit by our intrepid operatives to Honor's flagship. And Honor certainly wasn't given a clue that the planned op had anything to do with nukes covering escape from a busted op.

IITC, the op itself was sponsored by Torch with participation from Beowulf, Erewhon, and marginally the Ballroom.

So how do we assign responsibility? First we need to deal with context. Whether official or not, the overall context is war. Official in Torches case. A few hundred kids killed by a nuke is horrible, but it pales in comparison to what Manpower/Mesa has done to its slaves over the centuries. Then, to make the point further, Mesa was the origin of the genecidal attack on Torch that failed only due to Maya's intervention. For that matter OB followed Green Pines only by months. And while we are at it, Manpower/Alignment's actions in Monica and Talbot constituted acts of war against Manticore.

So how do we assign responsibility? You might as well ask who was responsible for the firebombing of Tokyo and Dresden? Who decided to drop the nukes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? What about all the misery inflicted in Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq? All of this stuff was deliberate and we know who the decision makers were for the most part. Who the war criminals in any conflict are is an indentification made by the victors and often has little to do with justice.

Then there is the matter of personal responsibility. The person responsible for setting off that bomb in a park full of kids was that seccy who, upon discovering he could not make his assigned target, set off the bomb and suicided. Had he made his assigned target, damage and loss of life would have been minimal.

So do Anton and Victor bear responsibility for that? They did ask for explosives to be gathered. The members of that cell with whom they associated themselves provided low level nukes instead of the conventional explosives that Anton was expecting. Out of self defense as much as anything else, Anton disables the locators. Then when the time came for the bombs to be used, Anton picks targets that would have provided a very noisy distraction, but few casualties. One of the bombs make to its assigned target. The other does not and the result is that a bomb goes off in a park full of kids.

I would have to say that Anton is responsible for working with that cell who consisted mostly of loosely wrapped kids whom he could not control who were filled with rage toward their oppressors. This is mitigated somewhat by the reality that there didn't seem to be anyone else to work with in that situation.

Anton is responsible in that he provides the impetus for gathering the explosives. That the gathered explosives were nukes was beyond his control and unless he is willing to bring the authorities down on the cell and his own op, he has to disable the locators. In essence his hand is forced.

Anton chose the preferred detonation point of the bombs. But his instructions were not carried out in the case of the Green Pines bomb. No way did he choose that location. He would have killed the individual who actually did the deed had he realized what would actually happen.

We cannot relieve Anton for his responsibility, but it is only fair to note that his choices were severely curtailed as the situation developed which to a certain degree limits his responsibility as well.

Then too, while we are assigning responsibility, it's probably wise not to limit it to this one incident. As I pointed out above, this incident was part of an ongoing war that was currently being waged in which the kids in that park were far from being the only victims. We have a tendency to regard war as being something like chess which is fought according to a clean cut set of rules. It's never like that in reality. It is really ugly, nasty and as messy as hell. It not only involves the soldier on the battlefield, but also the innocents who get caught in the crossfire.

Were those kids in Green Pines murdered? No. Murder implies malice aforethought, an intentionality that was missing. Not even the seccy who actually did the deed actually set out to murder kids. Those children were really casualties of war no less than any soldier on the battlefield... not that it matters to the kids one way or the other. Dead is dead.

So yes, Anton is responsible. But he has lots of company. It would be wrong on a moral basis to isolate this incident from the ongoing conflict and presume that Anton is responsible alone. There is lots of responsibility to go around. Unfortunately in war untangling the strands and doing justice gets so complicated that it almost never happens. :(

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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