All those Lacoon 2 WHJs

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All those Lacoon 2 WHJs
by pappilon » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:20 am
pappilon Rear Admiral Posts: 1074 Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:29 pm	with the immanent collapse of the SL as a viable star empire, what does the SEM actually do with them? Just pull out? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy. Ursula K. LeGuinn ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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by pappilon » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:20 am

pappilon
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with the immanent collapse of the SL as a viable star empire, what does the SEM actually do with them? Just pull out?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Re: All those Lacoon 2 WHJs
by Annachie » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:36 am
Annachie Fleet Admiral Posts: 3099 Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:36 pm	Make deals with the local star systems, or those at the other end, for them to run them. Then offer to provide warships to guard the WHJ's in the short term until the star system gets it's own guard/agreements up and running. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ still not dead.
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Re: All those Lacoon 2 WHJs

by Annachie » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:36 am

Annachie
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Make deals with the local star systems, or those at the other end, for them to run them.
Then offer to provide warships to guard the WHJ's in the short term until the star system gets it's own guard/agreements up and running.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
still not dead.

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Re: All those Lacoon 2 WHJs
by Weird Harold » Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:40 am
Weird Harold Fleet Admiral Posts: 4478 Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:25 pm Location: "Lost Wages", NV	pappilon wrote:with the immanent collapse of the SL as a viable star empire, what does the SEM actually do with them? Just pull out? Every wormhole terminus will be different. Established policy is the nearest populated system owns the terminus and Manticore makes a mutual defense and trade treaty to provide technical assistance (if required) in managing the terminus. That means they can just pull out if the owners don't want help and aren't threatened by their neighbors. (Or OFS/FF remnants) Some will be far enough from populated systems that Manticore can claim them by right of conquest -- an unlikely scenario since all known termini except Torch and Felix have functioning astro-control establishments. (and Felix is a closely held secret, so not "known" in-universe.) Manticore has always given generous terms to the owners where they've managed or defended the terminus, but it will depend on the skill of the negotiators involved at each termini how the GA reacts. . . . Answers! I got lots of answers! (Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: All those Lacoon 2 WHJs

by Weird Harold » Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:40 am

Weird Harold
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pappilon wrote:with the immanent collapse of the SL as a viable star empire, what does the SEM actually do with them? Just pull out?

Every wormhole terminus will be different. Established policy is the nearest populated system owns the terminus and Manticore makes a mutual defense and trade treaty to provide technical assistance (if required) in managing the terminus.

That means they can just pull out if the owners don't want help and aren't threatened by their neighbors. (Or OFS/FF remnants)

Some will be far enough from populated systems that Manticore can claim them by right of conquest -- an unlikely scenario since all known termini except Torch and Felix have functioning astro-control establishments. (and Felix is a closely held secret, so not "known" in-universe.)

Manticore has always given generous terms to the owners where they've managed or defended the terminus, but it will depend on the skill of the negotiators involved at each termini how the GA reacts.

.
.
.
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)

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Re: All those Lacoon 2 WHJs
by PeterZ » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:04 am
PeterZ Fleet Admiral Posts: 6432 Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:11 pm Location: Colorado	Weird Harold wrote: pappilon wrote:with the immanent collapse of the SL as a viable star empire, what does the SEM actually do with them? Just pull out? Every wormhole terminus will be different. Established policy is the nearest populated system owns the terminus and Manticore makes a mutual defense and trade treaty to provide technical assistance (if required) in managing the terminus. That means they can just pull out if the owners don't want help and aren't threatened by their neighbors. (Or OFS/FF remnants) Some will be far enough from populated systems that Manticore can claim them by right of conquest -- an unlikely scenario since all known termini except Torch and Felix have functioning astro-control establishments. (and Felix is a closely held secret, so not "known" in-universe.) Manticore has always given generous terms to the owners where they've managed or defended the terminus, but it will depend on the skill of the negotiators involved at each termini how the GA reacts. Some junctions are directly owned by the SL. Those can be annexed by right of conquest and justified as reparations. I suspect the SEM will share fees with the locals. These are largely in the protectorates.
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Re: All those Lacoon 2 WHJs

by PeterZ » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:04 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
pappilon wrote:with the immanent collapse of the SL as a viable star empire, what does the SEM actually do with them? Just pull out?

Every wormhole terminus will be different. Established policy is the nearest populated system owns the terminus and Manticore makes a mutual defense and trade treaty to provide technical assistance (if required) in managing the terminus.

That means they can just pull out if the owners don't want help and aren't threatened by their neighbors. (Or OFS/FF remnants)

Some will be far enough from populated systems that Manticore can claim them by right of conquest -- an unlikely scenario since all known termini except Torch and Felix have functioning astro-control establishments. (and Felix is a closely held secret, so not "known" in-universe.)

Manticore has always given generous terms to the owners where they've managed or defended the terminus, but it will depend on the skill of the negotiators involved at each termini how the GA reacts.

Some junctions are directly owned by the SL. Those can be annexed by right of conquest and justified as reparations. I suspect the SEM will share fees with the locals. These are largely in the protectorates.

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Re: All those Lacoon 2 WHJs
by Dauntless » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:17 am
Dauntless Rear Admiral Posts: 1070 Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:54 pm Location: United Kingdom	I think it unlikely that manticore will keep possesion of whj unless they are actually in or close enough that it makes sense to add them to the empire. i suppose if they are to be the galaxy's new polcieman then they might build naval bases by these WHJs, mainly as a place for those ships patrolling the verge and protectorates to have place to resupply and have leave etc. more likely they will find nearest system and give it to them, they will probably offer a few ships and help setting up control for a small fee but overall they will not be keeping them
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Re: All those Lacoon 2 WHJs

by Dauntless » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:17 am

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I think it unlikely that manticore will keep possesion of whj unless they are actually in or close enough that it makes sense to add them to the empire.

i suppose if they are to be the galaxy's new polcieman then they might build naval bases by these WHJs, mainly as a place for those ships patrolling the verge and protectorates to have place to resupply and have leave etc.

more likely they will find nearest system and give it to them, they will probably offer a few ships and help setting up control for a small fee but overall they will not be keeping them

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Re: All those Lacoon 2 WHJs
by PeterZ » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:03 am
PeterZ Fleet Admiral Posts: 6432 Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:11 pm Location: Colorado	A couple of things come to mind with the WJs. The MAlign must be targeting the systems that are connected to a WJ for their Renaissance Factor. If Admiral Givens considers the ramifications of a secret organization capable of pulling the SLs strings so effectively, she must acknowledge that that organization can influence individual systems as well. That organization would have to target WJs if it wanted to have greater influence on the galactic scale. So, regardless of what the SEM may prefer, the MAlign WILL be targeting systems associated with WJs. Letting them grab a greater foothold with those systems empowers the MAlign. Many of the systems associated with WJs in the protectorates will be eager to join the GA. Especially after the SL has disintegrated into a gaggle of dueling warlords, autocrats and demagogues. Those systems with WJs in the protectorates will be the logical political nodes for aggregating the systems of that region. Whether or not the system actually owns the WJ, is not so important here because of the willing association with the GA. There will be some WJs in the Joshua neighborhood that may well be owned by the SL directly. Those Shell worlds may not have the fondest opinion of the SEM. Retaining possession of those WJs with the idea of giving it to the local system some time in the future may be prudent. The WJs in the Core owned by the SL directly may well be a sticky wicket. Retaining physical control over the junction and their termini might be prudent, but at a political cost. It might be best to let them go and keep an eye on them for possible MAlign influence. Those systems owning a WJ and not aligned with the GA are going to be sources of concern in the years to come.
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Re: All those Lacoon 2 WHJs

by PeterZ » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:03 am

PeterZ
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A couple of things come to mind with the WJs.

The MAlign must be targeting the systems that are connected to a WJ for their Renaissance Factor. If Admiral Givens considers the ramifications of a secret organization capable of pulling the SLs strings so effectively, she must acknowledge that that organization can influence individual systems as well. That organization would have to target WJs if it wanted to have greater influence on the galactic scale. So, regardless of what the SEM may prefer, the MAlign WILL be targeting systems associated with WJs. Letting them grab a greater foothold with those systems empowers the MAlign.

Many of the systems associated with WJs in the protectorates will be eager to join the GA. Especially after the SL has disintegrated into a gaggle of dueling warlords, autocrats and demagogues. Those systems with WJs in the protectorates will be the logical political nodes for aggregating the systems of that region. Whether or not the system actually owns the WJ, is not so important here because of the willing association with the GA.

There will be some WJs in the Joshua neighborhood that may well be owned by the SL directly. Those Shell worlds may not have the fondest opinion of the SEM. Retaining possession of those WJs with the idea of giving it to the local system some time in the future may be prudent.

The WJs in the Core owned by the SL directly may well be a sticky wicket. Retaining physical control over the junction and their termini might be prudent, but at a political cost. It might be best to let them go and keep an eye on them for possible MAlign influence.

Those systems owning a WJ and not aligned with the GA are going to be sources of concern in the years to come.

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Re: All those Lacoon 2 WHJs
by n7axw » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:47 pm
n7axw Fleet Admiral Posts: 5997 Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:54 pm Location: Viborg, SD	Actually, in one confrontation between a RMN commodore and a Solly captain, it is pointed out that a wormhole belongs to whoever controls and polices it... and that the wormhole in question as just experienced a change in jurisdiction. One thought would be for the RMN to keep the wormhole and then split the profits after expenses with the local star system. That should build good will rather than be a liability. It is certainly better than the Sollies ever did. Don - When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: All those Lacoon 2 WHJs

by n7axw » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:47 pm

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Actually, in one confrontation between a RMN commodore and a Solly captain, it is pointed out that a wormhole belongs to whoever controls and polices it... and that the wormhole in question as just experienced a change in jurisdiction.

One thought would be for the RMN to keep the wormhole and then split the profits after expenses with the local star system. That should build good will rather than be a liability. It is certainly better than the Sollies ever did.

Don

-

When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.

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Re: All those Lacoon 2 WHJs
by pappilon » Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:15 am
pappilon Rear Admiral Posts: 1074 Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:29 pm	n7axw wrote:Actually, in one confrontation between a RMN commodore and a Solly captain, it is pointed out that a wormhole belongs to whoever controls and polices it... and that the wormhole in question as just experienced a change in jurisdiction. One thought would be for the RMN to keep the wormhole and then split the profits after expenses with the local star system. That should build good will rather than be a liability. It is certainly better than the Sollies ever did. Don - Honor found some little system just outside Silesia and worked out a basing contract. Which was then quoted in SoV as an indication that SEM was a good actor. I would imagine in a deteriorating universe alliances would be a good thing, especially with a SE or GA that is willing to take a small % of WHJ fees and basing rights to manage and defend the junction. A dozen or so junction forts should secure just about anything against almost anyone ... provided they find a way to spot those mystery ships. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy. Ursula K. LeGuinn ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Re: All those Lacoon 2 WHJs

by pappilon » Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:15 am

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n7axw wrote:Actually, in one confrontation between a RMN commodore and a Solly captain, it is pointed out that a wormhole belongs to whoever controls and polices it... and that the wormhole in question as just experienced a change in jurisdiction.

One thought would be for the RMN to keep the wormhole and then split the profits after expenses with the local star system. That should build good will rather than be a liability. It is certainly better than the Sollies ever did.

Don

-

Honor found some little system just outside Silesia and worked out a basing contract. Which was then quoted in SoV as an indication that SEM was a good actor.
I would imagine in a deteriorating universe alliances would be a good thing, especially with a SE or GA that is willing to take a small % of WHJ fees and basing rights to manage and defend the junction. A dozen or so junction forts should secure just about anything against almost anyone ... provided they find a way to spot those mystery ships.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Re: All those Lacoon 2 WHJs
by saber964 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:07 pm
saber964 Admiral Posts: 2423 Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:41 pm Location: Spokane WA USA	IIRC Manticore has offered generous terms with various governments. IMHO Manticore offers something like this, okay you have a possible WHJ/B. You get 33% the other end gets 33%, we find it, we run it, protect it and get 34% for 50/75/100 years then you and the other end can take over and split it evenly.
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Re: All those Lacoon 2 WHJs

by saber964 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:07 pm

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IIRC Manticore has offered generous terms with various governments. IMHO Manticore offers something like this, okay you have a possible WHJ/B. You get 33% the other end gets 33%, we find it, we run it, protect it and get 34% for 50/75/100 years then you and the other end can take over and split it evenly.

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Re: All those Lacoon 2 WHJs
by pappilon » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:30 pm
pappilon Rear Admiral Posts: 1074 Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:29 pm	saber964 wrote:IIRC Manticore has offered generous terms with various governments. IMHO Manticore offers something like this, okay you have a possible WHJ/B. You get 33% the other end gets 33%, we find it, we run it, protect it and get 34% for 50/75/100 years then you and the other end can take over and split it evenly. I think 34% is rather steep for 4 shifts of JTC and Junction forts, at least after the cost of construction of the forts is defrayed. I was thinking 40-40-20 and separate negotiation over basing. SKM has always been generous in its dealings with allies, unlike OFS' predatory (some would say beggar thy Client) practices. Maybe some less heavily trafficked WHJs would require a larger cut for management because costs are roughly the same even as traffic is lower. Some busier ones might squeeze out a smaller management cut with the much larger volume making the difference. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy. Ursula K. LeGuinn ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Re: All those Lacoon 2 WHJs

by pappilon » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:30 pm

pappilon
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saber964 wrote:IIRC Manticore has offered generous terms with various governments. IMHO Manticore offers something like this, okay you have a possible WHJ/B. You get 33% the other end gets 33%, we find it, we run it, protect it and get 34% for 50/75/100 years then you and the other end can take over and split it evenly.

I think 34% is rather steep for 4 shifts of JTC and Junction forts, at least after the cost of construction of the forts is defrayed. I was thinking 40-40-20 and separate negotiation over basing. SKM has always been generous in its dealings with allies, unlike OFS' predatory (some would say beggar thy Client) practices.

Maybe some less heavily trafficked WHJs would require a larger cut for management because costs are roughly the same even as traffic is lower. Some busier ones might squeeze out a smaller management cut with the much larger volume making the difference.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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