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SLN Ship improvement

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Re: SLN Ship improvement
Post by Sigs   » Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:43 am

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n7axw wrote:You guys are ignoring Weird Harold's question and quite frankly, that is the only one that really counts. Eventually there will be counters for Manty tech. But the League will be gone before it happens.

Don

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Will the league be fully gone or will the League remain in some fashion? What happens if 30-40 core worlds rally around a rump state? Would the GA hammer them and occupy them for a long time?

The more I think about it the worse the picture gets for the GA. They have a technological advantage NOW but for how long? And anything they do including nothing at all is bound to piss off many systems which will eventually come back for round two. The GA has 7 member nations in one fahion or other and between the 7 of them they have somewhere in the neighbourhood of 150 or so systems. The League has 1,700 systems many of them core shell worlds while how many of the GA's systems are truly industrialized? Considering that the two most heavily industrialized systems are now completely wiped of industry.

Even if the GA manages to defeat the League in 3 months and destroyed the Darius and the inner onion leaving the rest of the organization leaderless and without direction that would still leave hundreds of core and shell worlds that break up into hundreds of single and multi system nations. Wether or not I was fighting the GA if I was a leader of a nation after the collapse of the League I would do the exact same thing I suggested. It may not be pretty or brilliant but it is one of the only options available that give you a chance at surviving.
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Re: SLN Ship improvement
Post by munroburton   » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:21 am

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Inspired by the Trojan Horse project.

The SLN could start loading Solly merchantmen with destroyers and missile pods. Then run them into systems occupied by the GA. Wait for GA forces to intercept and attempt to board, then boom. The freighter is "disassembled" with hundreds of small cutting charges and its payload engages.

Predicted effectiveness? Might swat a few ships here and there. Could result in the GA blowing Solly merchantmen away. More likely, they'd simply order the merchantmen to open their cargo hatches and let the recon drones peek inside - assuming they're not already capable of penetrating scans, in which case, the whole idea is a dud anyway.
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Re: SLN Ship improvement
Post by George J. Smith   » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:09 am

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A very very BIG Manticore button.

When pressed it drops the wedge and broadcasts "We surrender" :mrgreen:
.
T&R
GJS

A man should live forever, or die in the attempt
Spider Robinson Callahan's Crosstime Saloon (1977) A voice is heard in Ramah
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Re: SLN Ship improvement
Post by quite possibly a cat   » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:18 pm

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Sigs wrote:
n7axw wrote:You guys are ignoring Weird Harold's question and quite frankly, that is the only one that really counts. Eventually there will be counters for Manty tech. But the League will be gone before it happens.

Don

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Will the league be fully gone or will the League remain in some fashion? What happens if 30-40 core worlds rally around a rump state? Would the GA hammer them and occupy them for a long time?

The more I think about it the worse the picture gets for the GA. They have a technological advantage NOW but for how long? And anything they do including nothing at all is bound to piss off many systems which will eventually come back for round two. The GA has 7 member nations in one fahion or other and between the 7 of them they have somewhere in the neighbourhood of 150 or so systems. The League has 1,700 systems many of them core shell worlds while how many of the GA's systems are truly industrialized? Considering that the two most heavily industrialized systems are now completely wiped of industry.

Even if the GA manages to defeat the League in 3 months and destroyed the Darius and the inner onion leaving the rest of the organization leaderless and without direction that would still leave hundreds of core and shell worlds that break up into hundreds of single and multi system nations. Wether or not I was fighting the GA if I was a leader of a nation after the collapse of the League I would do the exact same thing I suggested. It may not be pretty or brilliant but it is one of the only options available that give you a chance at surviving.

I think the League will vanish fully. Why? Debt. Who wants to take on that responsibility? Just quit. Plus the League really isn't a modern state, and even if you wanted to reform it you'd probably have to go about it by leaving and forming a whole new state. The GA could try and force some rump to remain, but that level of stupidity would require hiring the Mandarins as consultants.

Even if the GA does nothing, the antics we've seen in the preview snippets will probably lead to rebellion followed by the SLN's defeat at the hands of SDFs. IIRC, we've been explicitly told the SLN has fallen behind some of League SDFs.

But new nationals will probably form. Or at the very least defense pacts or the like. What Manticore needs to do is make sure those new nations are friendly and try to get included in those defense pacts. Which in light of the Mesa incident may be extremely difficult, since the one and only thing the League agrees on is the EE Edict.
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Re: SLN Ship improvement
Post by Sigs   » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:24 pm

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munroburton wrote:Inspired by the Trojan Horse project.

The SLN could start loading Solly merchantmen with destroyers and missile pods. Then run them into systems occupied by the GA. Wait for GA forces to intercept and attempt to board, then boom. The freighter is "disassembled" with hundreds of small cutting charges and its payload engages.

Predicted effectiveness? Might swat a few ships here and there. Could result in the GA blowing Solly merchantmen away. More likely, they'd simply order the merchantmen to open their cargo hatches and let the recon drones peek inside - assuming they're not already capable of penetrating scans, in which case, the whole idea is a dud anyway.



My thought is about having a realistic option for defence rather than offence. Building your strategy or doctrine based on what might or might not work a handful of times does not strike me as a good idea.

Wether the mandarins are overthrown or not, wether the League sheds a lot of systems and remains a rump state it doesn't matter. Even if peace returns to what remains of the League they would still have to build some sort of viable defence while trying to get technological parity. We know that a fraction of the GA's SD(P)s can wipe out every commissioned SD and those from the reserve without much problem. We know that their lighter combatants are just as inferior as the SD's. So what does that leave? Wether peace returns or not I would still expect that some sort of stop gap measure be created to provide some degree of security for the League or successor states.


I am a firm believer in having warships and doctrine that is diverse and what I am suggesting is to specialize the military in question to such a degree that they won't have offensive capability for a long time... but then again this is not a strategy for long term survival it is a strategy to give yourself some breathing space.
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Re: SLN Ship improvement
Post by Henry Brown   » Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:18 pm

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It has been established that it is nearly impossible to upgrade existing SLN ships to the point that they could face current generation GA technology. It would be quicker and less expensive to simply build new ships. I do not intend to revisit this topic or flog this deceased equine.

However, if the SL breaks up into a number of successor states then each of these successor states will most likely only have current SLN ships. Would it be worthwhile for these potential successor states to upgrade their ships with an eye to facing each other?

For example, let's say there is Warlord A and Warlord B. Each controls a number of former SL planets and each has inherited 100 Scientist class SDs. Warlord A upgrades his Scientist SDs so they have 50% more counter missiles and laser clusters. A 50% increase in missile defense is not going to make any difference against the GA: those Scientist class ships are still going to get blown out of space. My question is: would the 50% increase in missile defense be decisive against the non-upgraded Scientist SDs of Warlord B?
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Re: SLN Ship improvement
Post by Eagleeye   » Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:55 pm

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Henry Brown wrote: [...]For example, let's say there is Warlord A and Warlord B. Each controls a number of former SL planets and each has inherited 100 Scientist class SDs. Warlord A upgrades his Scientist SDs so they have 50% more counter missiles and laser clusters. A 50% increase in missile defense is not going to make any difference against the GA: those Scientist class ships are still going to get blown out of space. My question is: would the 50% increase in missile defense be decisive against the non-upgraded Scientist SDs of Warlord B?

Impossible to say. It don't hurt, that's for sure. But in a battle there're so much more facettes you have to consider. For example: Where is the battle? Is one side forced to take the battle (because it's in its homesystem for example)? Is the guy who commands the modernized scientists the aggressor or the defender? How good are both COs in battle tactics and battle psychology - means: how good are they in reading the guy/gal on the other side correctly? How are the politicians in the system of the defender? Are they trying to be backside drivers for their admirals or do they have enough trust into the abilities of their people on the sharp end? If I think longer, I'm sure I can come up with more additional facets, but even so you take my meaning, don't you?
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Re: SLN Ship improvement
Post by n7axw   » Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:02 pm

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The League as we know it will be gone. There will be successor states, some of which will be bigger than the Star Empire even though the Star Empire itself has become sizable by the time the Talbot Quadrant and Silesia are included.

But that was anticipated in the Harrington Plan: break the League up and then befriend the successor states by offering mutual defense treaties, trade agreements, and educational and cultural exchanges.

Another thought. The peace that the League enforced is also gone. At least some of the successor states are going to be worried more about defending themselves against antagonistic neighbors than making trouble for Manticore. That will create openings for both the GA and the RF Factor to exploit.

I suspect that the RF Factor to emerge as the GA's primary rival in the future. Balance of power tipped one way or the other by war and diplomacy is what lies in the near term to intermediate term future. As for the long term, who knows... :?

Does anyone recognize the end of a golden age except in retrospect? -- Rear Admiral Villiers in Starfire Universe

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: SLN Ship improvement
Post by Sigs   » Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:07 pm

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Henry Brown wrote:It has been established that it is nearly impossible to upgrade existing SLN ships to the point that they could face current generation GA technology. It would be quicker and less expensive to simply build new ships. I do not intend to revisit this topic or flog this deceased equine.

And I am not suggesting that it is a viable option to do so.

Henry Brown wrote:However, if the SL breaks up into a number of successor states then each of these successor states will most likely only have current SLN ships. Would it be worthwhile for these potential successor states to upgrade their ships with an eye to facing each other?

We are talking about core and shell worlds that will not want to be second or third rate to the GA. After all if they do not get parity with the GA they will see it as a threat that the GA can and will push them around at will. No core world will willingly let it's defences be 3rd rate if it could help it and more importantly there would be systems that start building little empires while others will settle old scores.

Henry Brown wrote:For example, let's say there is Warlord A and Warlord B. Each controls a number of former SL planets and each has inherited 100 Scientist class SDs. Warlord A upgrades his Scientist SDs so they have 50% more counter missiles and laser clusters. A 50% increase in missile defense is not going to make any difference against the GA: those Scientist class ships are still going to get blown out of space. My question is: would the 50% increase in missile defense be decisive against the non-upgraded Scientist SDs of Warlord B?


Yes they would, it would allow those 100 SD's to stop that much more of the enemies missiles. He gets to keep more of his SD's at wars end.

But here we are not talking about upgrading the SD's defences, we are talking about building entirely new platforms that have only one purpose and that is to stop missiles. If you have enough anti-missile defence in a system to blunt the GA's attack if not stop it altogether.


If you take an obsolete LAC design, remove all armament and add only PD clusters and you have an ineffective weapon by itself but in large numbers it is quite effective. As you start building you are simultaneously doing R and D. When you make a breakthrough you add it into the design and the next batch of LAC's and so on. You might end up with 20 different variations but when you have the chance you start retiring the earliest classes of LAC's.


It would be a lot easier to pump out 20.000 LAC's for system defence than building another 100 or so SD's that make absolutely no difference even if they could afford it. And it might be easier to convince the host system to build them out of their own money and resources and let the SLN man them than ask them to build warships that aren't effective against the GA.
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Re: SLN Ship improvement
Post by Sigs   » Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:14 pm

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n7axw wrote:
But that was anticipated in the Harrington Plan: break the League up and then befriend the successor states by offering mutual defense treaties, trade agreements, and educational and cultural exchanges.


And that is not always going to work. Unless the GA want's to force people into their treaties and trade agreements it will not always work. More to the point many of the core worlds will resent being in a position of weakness compared to the GA.

n7axw wrote:Another thought. The peace that the League enforced is also gone. At least some of the successor states are going to be worried more about defending themselves against antagonistic neighbors than making trouble for Manticore. That will create openings for both the GA and the RF Factor to exploit.

I would venture a guess that the vast majority of the successor states will be worried about defending themselves from their neighbours, but that does not mean they will not want revenge against the GA. The GA took down or is going to take down their insulation from reality and many will not soon forget.
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