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Upcoming surplus of junior officers

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Re: Upcoming surplus of junior officers
Post by senna   » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:43 pm

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Speaking as a Submariner in the Royal Navy I have experience with hot bunking, and cabin fever. That being said I have heard stories of people who tried to open the hatch on a submarine whilst it was dived, they didn't get far as they were jumped on by everyone nearby, That being said even if someone got to the hatch their is no way in hell they would ever be able to open it. That being said there would be multiple safety interlocks on an air lock to stop both doors from being opened at the same time, Electronic as well as Mechanical. The greatest risk would be from an individual from doing self harm...
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Re: Upcoming surplus of junior officers
Post by Sigs   » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:29 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
Sigs wrote:When I was in the army no one was worried about my temper flaring because I was sleeping on a cot in a tent at -40.


Army experience -- or USAF experience in my case -- bears no resemblance to Navy experience; specifically submarine experience. If a submarine sailor cracks because of over-crowding or 'cabin fever' the result can be the loss of a ship or crew. Opening both doors on an airlock because you cracked and "need some fresh air" is a lot more serious than losing your temper out on bivouac.



And a Heavy Cruiser is a large ship by any standard. They may not have a designated bed for a midshipmen but it will not be quite the same effect as that on a submarine. You can always have some space to go. If we were talking about a LAC and increasing the crew by 20-30 I would be worried as there would most likely be no space for that many people for a long time but in a large ship where we are talking about sending 16 midshipmen when the ship has beds for 8 is not even a concern. And if they cannot survive a few months to a year of that then they definitely have no business being on a warship.
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Re: Upcoming surplus of junior officers
Post by Brigade XO   » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:59 pm

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I think the building of a special section (4, 6 or 8 etc) of bunking for snottys might not be quite the right terminology. It is possible that most CA and above might have a particular section set aside for midshipmen on their snotty cruise but more likely it is or can be used as extra berthing space for expanded compliment of crew or persons traveling (on business or not) on Naval ships. Note the mention in Shadow of Vicotry that Mrs. Terekhov covers a part about the Navy being (usualy) very good about letting dependents travel on RMN ships. Ginger wanted to put her in better quaters (probably at the cost of displacing an officer) but Ginger asked to be in snotty row.

As for snotties being supernumeraries, that's not quite true. They are inexperienced but they are trained to a certain level in all sorts of things with greater or lessor levels depending on specialization and are learning how things actualy work on the job plus are given levels of responsibilities at different time which are part of that training. Putting a midshipman as the Officer of the Deck in the boat bay in charge of access and leaving the ship while it's "in port" is not only an important responsibility, it gives the snotty the experience. You do have to both pay attention, do the job correctly and make decisions (as needed). Snotties are not just along for the ride or aboard as contractors/yard representatives providing a service or as Diplomats being transported someplace. They ARE a part of the crew and their relative positions should be extremely clear to the rest of the crew. Officer trainees learning by doing.

Helen abing a Flag LT is not usual given her actual rank but having a midshipman working on a ship -on the bridge (and learning) of a ship that has an with an Admiral aboard commanding their detachment of ships wouldn't be unusual. It's the job, not where it is being done. In that case, the snottie isn't going to have much interaction with said Admiral except on occasions such as the kind of officer mess situations we have seen.

It does make sence to have a berthing area set aside for snotties if the ship is large enough. You put them together for management. Exactly where realtive to the rest of the crew an/or officers I am not sure of. Part of the job- and learning- is to get from where your are to where you need to be in a timely manner so you have to manage your time. More learning, or at least reenforcing a skill they ought to have from the Academy though they have to develope it more finely in a new enviornment with a whole new set of potential problems,time constraints and variations.
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Re: Upcoming surplus of junior officers
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:02 pm

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Sigs wrote:I would argue this point. The last thing that is limiting the # of snoties is the sleeping arrangement. They can hot bunk, put cots anywhere and every where there is free space or get a sleeping bag and a pillow and sleep on the floor. They are in the military after all.

It's unlikely that every junior officer bunk is filled. Sure, but convention the Snotties group get a berthing compartment of their own - but the compartment is probably no different than other junior officer berthing (something Brigade XO also kind of touched on white I was writing this) - so adding a few extra Snotties could probably be accommodated by sticking them in with junior officers in any berthing compartment that isn't completely full. (And of course if you really are full up then you can go to hot bunking, etc)

Ability to supervise and train them is much more likely to be the limiting factor.

Even factoring in life support and consumables, a few extra Snotties is a far cry from doubling the ship complement like Honor did escaping Hades. Warships have lots of life support margin, and 8 more people (or less) isn't going to put any significant strain on it, not even on something with as little crew as a Roland. So I agree that I don't see bunk space (and lifesupport/supplies) as likely to be the limiting factor for number of Snotties you can support.
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Re: Upcoming surplus of junior officers
Post by pappilon   » Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:11 pm

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THE one and only limiting factor is NOT the dormitory space the university/Military academy has but the Student to Professor ratio that institute of higher learning deems is ideal for proper instruction and training. Which is determined by whatever spacelord is incharge of training and education.

Yes, YEs YES, you can cram 100 snotties into a SD which has no bearing on the AT/OCTO's ability to guarantee to the best of her ability to her organization that these snotties are getting a proper and adequate testing and training to become officers whose metal has been tested and approved. Remember Better to break now than when you are in command?

What is important is quality of training not number of warm bodies crammed into a fairly unlimited space. (Insert Handwavium here). Guarantee THAT and I will grant you (inserting handwavium here) 100 or 1000 snotties per SD(p) 50 or 500 per BC and 20 or 200 for destroyers and Cruisers.
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The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

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Re: Upcoming surplus of junior officers
Post by Bluesqueak   » Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:15 pm

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The purpose of Snotty Row isn't just to provide bunk space for Snotties. It's to see how the Snotties react when placed in a small group of people, some of whom are strangers, and all of whom are overworked.

That is, it replicates as far as possible the environment of the officers mess of a small ship. Take Snotty Row beyond eight, and it becomes more like Saganami, and they already know how the Snotties reacted at Saganami. Plus, more than eight will be too many for an OCTO, and being an OCTO is an important part of a potential Captain/Exec's trainiing.

I think the RNM would rather extend the training at Saganami than double up on Midshipmen's berths. I'm fairly sure they could add on the equivalent of post graduate courses for high scoring students to delay the middy cruise.
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Re: Upcoming surplus of junior officers
Post by pappilon   » Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:52 pm

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Bluesqueak wrote:The purpose of Snotty Row isn't just to provide bunk space for Snotties. It's to see how the Snotties react when placed in a small group of people, some of whom are strangers, and all of whom are overworked.

That is, it replicates as far as possible the environment of the officers mess of a small ship. Take Snotty Row beyond eight, and it becomes more like Saganami, and they already know how the Snotties reacted at Saganami. Plus, more than eight will be too many for an OCTO, and being an OCTO is an important part of a potential Captain/Exec's trainiing.

I think the RNM would rather extend the training at Saganami than double up on Midshipmen's berths. I'm fairly sure they could add on the equivalent of post graduate courses for high scoring students to delay the middy cruise.


Yes absolutely! And where is textev that snotties don't train into specialties until after their cruise ends? Paolo was pretty much Asst EWO officer anyway. Helen was probably NOT going into Astronavigation, but into tac. Wasn't there another one that was pretty much decided ob engineering? And MS, Paveltec was a crack pilot and probably slated for a future in LAC command.

If we can shorten training with little negative impact, we can surely push it back to where it was, I mean just for this python lump of middies until the ship building catches up.
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The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

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Re: Upcoming surplus of junior officers
Post by Fox2!   » Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:01 pm

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saber964 wrote:

Yep we got bigger guns.



I'll see your Tomahawk and raise a Mimuteman III. Pre-SALT II.
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Re: Upcoming surplus of junior officers
Post by Sigs   » Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:39 pm

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Bluesqueak wrote:The purpose of Snotty Row isn't just to provide bunk space for Snotties. It's to see how the Snotties react when placed in a small group of people, some of whom are strangers, and all of whom are overworked.

That is, it replicates as far as possible the environment of the officers mess of a small ship. Take Snotty Row beyond eight, and it becomes more like Saganami, and they already know how the Snotties reacted at Saganami. Plus, more than eight will be too many for an OCTO, and being an OCTO is an important part of a potential Captain/Exec's trainiing.

I think the RNM would rather extend the training at Saganami than double up on Midshipmen's berths. I'm fairly sure they could add on the equivalent of post graduate courses for high scoring students to delay the middy cruise.



Or spread the responsibility to multiple officers? Give the midshipmen to multiple officers rather than just one and get on with it. They are tested to see how they react to being on a warship because of the profession they have chosen, if it becomes such a big problem that they have to be crowded then maybe they chose the wrong profession. I doubt the Marines on a ship have all that much space per marine and they are not exactly lining up to commit mass suicide because of their living arrangements.
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Re: Upcoming surplus of junior officers
Post by Sigs   » Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:47 pm

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pappilon wrote:
Bluesqueak wrote:The purpose of Snotty Row isn't just to provide bunk space for Snotties. It's to see how the Snotties react when placed in a small group of people, some of whom are strangers, and all of whom are overworked.

That is, it replicates as far as possible the environment of the officers mess of a small ship. Take Snotty Row beyond eight, and it becomes more like Saganami, and they already know how the Snotties reacted at Saganami. Plus, more than eight will be too many for an OCTO, and being an OCTO is an important part of a potential Captain/Exec's trainiing.

I think the RNM would rather extend the training at Saganami than double up on Midshipmen's berths. I'm fairly sure they could add on the equivalent of post graduate courses for high scoring students to delay the middy cruise.


Yes absolutely! And where is textev that snotties don't train into specialties until after their cruise ends? Paolo was pretty much Asst EWO officer anyway. Helen was probably NOT going into Astronavigation, but into tac. Wasn't there another one that was pretty much decided ob engineering? And MS, Paveltec was a crack pilot and probably slated for a future in LAC command.

If we can shorten training with little negative impact, we can surely push it back to where it was, I mean just for this python lump of middies until the ship building catches up.



This is the time for them to catch up on officers and men. It is better to have more people then you have ships for than to have fewer people then you have ships for. Plus they have 89% of the population to integrate into the navy. Between the GSN and RMN there are more than 1,400 ships from Destroyer on up to SD(P) and SD and that is a conservative number. Even if we put 8 midshipmen per ship on average we end up with 11,200 positions, with more going to the bigger ships less to the smaller ships but push comes to shove it can be done. There is no shortage of positions
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