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Upcoming surplus of junior officers

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Re: Upcoming surplus of junior officers
Post by kzt   » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:28 pm

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zyffyr wrote:Assumption #5 is pretty valid - we have explicit textev (somewhere in Shadows of Saganami, iirc) that the snotty cruise determines whether or not the individual actually receives a commission. Until they do the cruise, they don't have a proper place in the rank structure.

Which will make it interesting when it’s a 3-4 month trip each way to join up with your ship.
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Re: Upcoming surplus of junior officers
Post by ldwechsler   » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:12 pm

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Tim wrote:
Sigs wrote:

All of those highly educated middies are still in short supply. For quite some time there will not be enough junior officers to meet all the needs the GA has, especially Manticore.

Why? Let me count the ways. :)

1 Manning the Fleet. This point has been fairly well covered.

2 Manning the tech and training schools in the Talbert Cluster. A major program to integrating the cluster into the star empire is to improve the tech base and educational system. This project all by it self will swallow any excess to needs middies.

3 Manning an eyes and ears program to watch the Silsia officials mend their ways. There is nothing less threatening to those officials then a little midshipmen running back and forth learning to be an officer.



I don't know if you are being sarcastic or not but I don't think that anyone is talking about sending the middies to do the tasks you described. They are send to the fleet and more experienced officers are taken from the fleet to man those positions.


Tim wrote:All three of those option would provide middies experience. The training officer would have a lot of information available to him or her to determine their suitability as an officer.

Remember not all officers are destined for daring do and glory. A lot of officers manage logistics and train aspiring spacemen.

Option 2 and 3 would also give you a leg up on identifying those middies with a flair for unorthodox and out of the box thinking not directly tactically based. Identifying those out of the box thinker and quickly bringing them along is well worth any downside.

Oh and by the way was not a sarcastic post. :) My sarcastic posts usually start something like, Please.........


Let's just look at history. At the end of WWI and WW2, there were a lot of extra officers and men. The armed forces contracted. That was particularly true of the first war where it seemed peace had broken out. Less so for the second because of the onset of the Cold War.

It is true that if one class is the same size as the one preceding it that you don't need more middie spaces for the snottie cruise. However, pouring officers into a navy means finding more slots. When there are a lot of deaths, there are spots to fill and we've read about the problems particularly after Oyster Bay.

But in a peaceful galaxy, there won't be that big a push for new ships and probably there will be more forced retirements. And (social) rank still has its privileges.
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Re: Upcoming surplus of junior officers
Post by Weird Harold   » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:49 am

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Tim wrote:

All of those highly educated middies are still in short supply. For quite some time there will not be enough junior officers to meet all the needs the GA has, especially Manticore.

Why? Let me count the ways. :)

1 Manning the Fleet. This point has been fairly well covered.

2 Manning the tech and training schools in the Talbert Cluster. A major program to integrating the cluster into the star empire is to improve the tech base and educational system. This project all by it self will swallow any excess to needs middies.

3 Manning an eyes and ears program to watch the Silsia officials mend their ways. There is nothing less threatening to those officials then a little midshipmen running back and forth learning to be an officer.



Tim wrote:All three of those option would provide middies experience. The training officer would have a lot of information available to him or her to determine their suitability as an officer.

Remember not all officers are destined for daring do and glory. A lot of officers manage logistics and train aspiring spacemen.

Option 2 and 3 would also give you a leg up on identifying those middies with a flair for unorthodox and out of the box thinking not directly tactically based. Identifying those out of the box thinker and quickly bringing them along is well worth any downside.


What sort of assignment would give a better evaluation of a Snotty? Assuming that "Snotty Cruise" means shipboard deployment, because Middies (officially) don't specialize until after graduation.

Would being one-of-one-hundred Snotties on an SD or CLAC or being one-of-half-dozen on a CL or DD give better observation and training?


Why exclude shore-side "cruises?"

Because, while a shore-side assignment could provide training, it couldn't provide the stress and isolation that an actual cruise would even without a measure of "daring do." Manticore doesn't allow officers to "homestead" in a particular assignment or specialty, (so Scotty Tremaine gets a Heavy Cruiser command instead of a COLAC's slot,) and they need to know how Snotties will handle shipboard stresses.

A Snottie Cruise might be the only shipboard deployment a medic candidate sees in a ten-year enlistment, so it would be the only chance to evaluate in that environment.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Upcoming surplus of junior officers
Post by Sigs   » Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:29 am

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n7axw wrote:
Yeah but many of the Keyhole wallers will be going to the RHN. I doubt that they would try to keep the Keyhole platforms concentrated in the RMN and the GSN.


Right, but so what? Haven's capacity to provide new hulls is huge. Manticore will be getting only a portion of those hulls. Perhaps not as many as prior to OB, but probably enough to absorb the bulk of the personnel available until her own yards have been rebuilt. Then too, remember that Manticore's perennial problem has been a shortfall of personnel, not a surplus, although recruits from Silesia and Talbot might turn that around.

Don

-[/quote]
And Havens demand for Keyhole equipped ships would be equally large. More to the point are wallers under construction in Bolthole and other Havenite yards compatible with keyhole?

Havenite ships are more labour intensive than the RMN's, if for the time being all new Havenite construction goes to re-equipe them with comparable ships the RMN will not be getting much eve if they wanted it in the first place.


As for the personnel from Talbot and Silesia represents it's own problems. While RMN and GSN yards are being rebuild they should send any excess personnel to man schools in both Silesia and Talbott to get ahead of the problem. The two regions represent a tremendous manpower boost IF they can be trained properly.
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Re: Upcoming surplus of junior officers
Post by Sigs   » Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:37 am

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Tim wrote:
All three of those option would provide middies experience. The training officer would have a lot of information available to him or her to determine their suitability as an officer.

Remember not all officers are destined for daring do and glory. A lot of officers manage logistics and train aspiring spacemen.

Option 2 and 3 would also give you a leg up on identifying those middies with a flair for unorthodox and out of the box thinking not directly tactically based. Identifying those out of the box thinker and quickly bringing them along is well worth any downside.

Oh and by the way was not a sarcastic post. :) My sarcastic posts usually start something like, Please.........


I don't see how option 2 and 3 are beneficial to the middies or the navy in general. Wether you are a future tactical officer or a future supply officer is irrelevant, they need on the job training. Send them to a ship and pull someone from that ship that is experienced and capable of teaching.

Who would be more beneficial for option 2, a middie or a LT(JG/SG) or LTCmdr/Cmdr? Same goes for their enlisted ranks. Sending brand new graduates to teach is only acceptable if they are the best of the best of the best or you have absolutely no choice in the matter, its either them or no-one.
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Re: Upcoming surplus of junior officers
Post by pappilon   » Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:48 am

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Sigs wrote:I don't see how option 2 and 3 are beneficial to the middies or the navy in general. Wether you are a future tactical officer or a future supply officer is irrelevant, they need on the job training. Send them to a ship and pull someone from that ship that is experienced and capable of teaching.

Who would be more beneficial for option 2, a middie or a LT(JG/SG) or LTCmdr/Cmdr? Same goes for their enlisted ranks. Sending brand new graduates to teach is only acceptable if they are the best of the best of the best or you have absolutely no choice in the matter, its either them or no-one.


Yes, but, perhaps the implication is pulling experienced personnel from ships to fill those "unsuitable" positions moves other officers into those positions and makes room for snotties on their ships. Such rotations are already a normal part of a naval career, so no big deal. All Cortez has to do is stall some in the onshore postings they currently hold. Again, no career harm done.
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Re: Upcoming surplus of junior officers
Post by n7axw   » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:53 pm

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Sigs wrote:
And Havens demand for Keyhole equipped ships would be equally large. More to the point are wallers under construction in Bolthole and other Havenite yards compatible with keyhole?

Havenite ships are more labour intensive than the RMN's, if for the time being all new Havenite construction goes to re-equipe them with comparable ships the RMN will not be getting much eve if they wanted it in the first place.


As for the personnel from Talbot and Silesia represents it's own problems. While RMN and GSN yards are being rebuild they should send any excess personnel to man schools in both Silesia and Talbott to get ahead of the problem. The two regions represent a tremendous manpower boost IF they can be trained properly.


One of the reasons for sending the r&d staff to bolthole and what Haven gets out of the deal will be to upgrade Haven's tech. While none of this will happen instantly, the new ships being built as a result of this will be "neither fish nor foul," so to speak. That is even though they are built in Havenite yards, Manty tech will be reflected in the construction, sparingly at first, probably increasingly so as time goes on.


The real determinate on the size of the fleet and whether there is a personnel shortage will be war or peace. If there is peace, the size of Saganami will shrink, probably going back to what it was when Honor went through, although with added responsibilities in Silesia and Talbot, maybe not quite that small. But continued war will continue to absorb manpower and Saganami's size will be fhe same as now or even larger.

I doubt that there is going to be much of a surplus of people even with the loss of construction capability from Oyster Bay. For one thing, that construction capacity is being rebuilt as quickly as possible. Secondly Haven is at least partially making up the shortfall of hulls. Finally, Manticore took a huge hit personnel-wise from both the first BOM and Oyster Bay. That makes what we have here a dislocation on a remporary basis rather than a true surplus.

Your idea about using dislocated personnel to start schools in Silesia is a good one, bearing in mind that you need experienced people for that, not newbies.

Don

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Re: Upcoming surplus of junior officers
Post by ldwechsler   » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:56 pm

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n7axw wrote:
Sigs wrote:
And Havens demand for Keyhole equipped ships would be equally large. More to the point are wallers under construction in Bolthole and other Havenite yards compatible with keyhole?

Havenite ships are more labour intensive than the RMN's, if for the time being all new Havenite construction goes to re-equipe them with comparable ships the RMN will not be getting much eve if they wanted it in the first place.


As for the personnel from Talbot and Silesia represents it's own problems. While RMN and GSN yards are being rebuild they should send any excess personnel to man schools in both Silesia and Talbott to get ahead of the problem. The two regions represent a tremendous manpower boost IF they can be trained properly.


One of the reasons for sending the r&d staff to bolthole and what Haven gets out of the deal will be to upgrade Haven's tech. While none of this will happen instantly, the new ships being built as a result of this will be "neither fish nor foul," so to speak. That is even though they are built in Havenite yards, Manty tech will be reflected in the construction, sparingly at first, probably increasingly so as time goes on.


The real determinate on the size of the fleet and whether there is a personnel shortage will be war or peace. If there is peace, the size of Saganami will shrink, probably going back to what it was when Honor went through, although with added responsibilities in Silesia and Talbot, maybe not quite that small. But continued war will continue to absorb manpower and Saganami's size will be fhe same as now or even larger.

I doubt that there is going to be much of a surplus of people even with the loss of construction capability from Oyster Bay. For one thing, that construction capacity is being rebuilt as quickly as possible. Secondly Haven is at least partially making up the shortfall of hulls. Finally, Manticore took a huge hit personnel-wise from both the first BOM and Oyster Bay. That makes what we have here a dislocation on a remporary basis rather than a true surplus.

Your idea about using dislocated personnel to start schools in Silesia is a good one, bearing in mind that you need experienced people for that, not newbies.

Don

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A few points:

There would not be a hundred middies on board an SD. The Assistant Tac Officer is in charge. No one could be in charge of that many people. And keep in mind that many of the jobs require the same number of people on large and small ships. Doing astrogation, electronics, tac, etc. It would be a lousy snottie cruise if most of the people got a limited experience.

Also, when the war ends and there are few ships, the Academy may well have fewer students but the thousands that joined the navy will be in place. There won't be a reason to carry that many thousand ships...the Battle Fleet of the Sollies is an example of what that creates. Essentially a patronage-filled useless money drain. A lot of people will be let go.

Yes, it would be good to send people out to some of the new planets but I doubt there would be huge numbers. Too many and the other planets will feel flooded with newcomers.
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Re: Upcoming surplus of junior officers
Post by saber964   » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:35 pm

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My guess on middie cruises aboard SD's is it depends on their age look at some of the middie cruises that people have taken. IIRC Prince Michael was 1 of 12 aboard a light cruiser, Honor 1 of 6, Helen 1 of 5 with 8 slots available, Abigail 1 of 6, Paula 1 of 5 with probably 6 slots. On a SD depending on it age, I can see upwards of a hundred middies on board. But instead of all of them assigned just to the ATO they would be assigned more to there permanent duty assignments than rotating around and the other assistant department heads handling the paperwork upkeep as they rotate.
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Re: Upcoming surplus of junior officers
Post by Sigs   » Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:23 pm

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n7axw wrote:
The real determinate on the size of the fleet and whether there is a personnel shortage will be war or peace. If there is peace, the size of Saganami will shrink, probably going back to what it was when Honor went through, although with added responsibilities in Silesia and Talbot, maybe not quite that small. But continued war will continue to absorb manpower and Saganami's size will be fhe same as now or even larger.

Keep in mind that when Honor went through the academy Manticore was a single system nation with an expanding fleet. Even if peace returns stability ensues the fleet that would be extremely large for 1 system nation would not be quite sufficient to guarantee the security of a 30 system nation. So they will likely expand even in peace unless the war last so long that it allows to effectively tap Silesia and Talbott's population and increases the navy to levels not needed in peacetime.

Even then there would be verge, protectorates, shell systems and even some core nations which will be sending their officers to go through the Manticoran Academy while building up their military.

n7axw wrote:I doubt that there is going to be much of a surplus of people even with the loss of construction capability from Oyster Bay. For one thing, that construction capacity is being rebuilt as quickly as possible. Secondly Haven is at least partially making up the shortfall of hulls. Finally, Manticore took a huge hit personnel-wise from both the first BOM and Oyster Bay. That makes what we have here a dislocation on a remporary basis rather than a true surplus.

Your idea about using dislocated personnel to start schools in Silesia is a good one, bearing in mind that you need experienced people for that, not newbies.

Don

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The war has no end in sight mainly because even if the League collapses the MA is still very much an unknown. So it is imperative to put every asset you have to use. The Merchant marine with a lot of reservists is sitting around doing nothing productive, even when Haven opens up that would still leave a lot of reservists laying about waiting for work.


Manticore and Grayson will get their construction capability back quickly but it will likely not be 100% that quickly. So Manticoran or Grayson SD's will likely not be coming into service for at least a few years and likely a decade before they start pumping out SD(P)s in any significant numbers.

1) In their place I would let Haven take all of the new construction as they still have a lot of manpower left over and still might have some SD's in service.

2) I would immediately start scrapping SD's like HMS Hercules in Talbott, in all the books that ship has done preciously little to affect the outcome in any way. Thats 5,000 people right there and then scrap any light combatant that is way too close to SLN tech levels. If a light combatant would be hard pressed when fighting a rival of a similar class then it should be scrapped and and put the manpower back into other needs.

3) Haven and Manticore are going to exchange prisoners, it might not be too great a boost but getting all of their POW's back would be good. After all the Alliance lost almost all the opening battle of Thunderbolt, and Haven captured all those systems and with them any of the Alliance survivors.
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