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Thoughts on Samothrace SDs.

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Thoughts on Samothrace SDs.
Post by Theemile   » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:41 pm

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In HoS, we are told that the following #s of SDs were built by the RMN.
Samothrace : 7
King William : 25
Anduril : 14
Victory : 36
Sphinx : 67
Gryphon : 163

We were told that the surviving members of the King William and Anduril Classes were sold to Erewhon, and the 34 remaining Victories and all the old ex-Havenite SDs were sold to Grayson at scrap prices.

The 1920 Fleet list tells us that 225 Manty SDs survived in the Manty fleet on March 1st 1920, and textex tells that they were only 3 classes – Samothrace, Sphinx, and Gryphon, are still in the Manty fleet. The total build counts of these 3 classes was 237 – meaning that 12 ships of these 3 classes were lost In the first war. In addition, only 2 Victory class ships were lost in the first war, intimating that the newer classes had lower loss rates that the smaller/older SDs and the DNs.

So where am I going with all this? Well, chances are that most (or, at least, many) of the 12 losses were the smaller, less well defended Samothraces. We know at least 1 survived, meaning that as many as 6 may have been destroyed in the first war. When were they destroyed? Well we were told they were all usually used as station flagships, and given their older, more fragile nature and the fact that Sphinx/Gryphon flag variants exist, we can assume they were not usually allocated for offensive fleet uses. Like the ex – Havenite Capitol ships, they were probably used as “backwater” station flagships in defensive locations to maximize their potential and minimize their weaknesses. Such fleets were probably also filled out with the Ad Astra and Royal Winton DNs, allowing newer, more powerful ships to be concentrated on the front.

If so, when would a Samothrace, which probably was rarely used in offensives and overly risked, be lost? Well, the best guess is whenever a behind the front lines system picket with a capital ship presence got completely blown away, a Samothrace was lost. And of which we know of 4 – Santino’s loss at Seaford 9 (his flagship was the Hadrian), The 2 taskforces lost at Basilisk and the task force lost at Yalta under Harry Styles with cold impellers at the beginning of the war. Can anyone think of where another Samothrace could have been lost in the 1st war?

Samothrace and Hercules are the 2 names we know for the ship class. Could the Hadrian be a third? What could be the names of the other 4?
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Thoughts on Samothrace SDs.
Post by pappilon   » Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:55 am

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Posts: 446
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Theemile wrote:In HoS, we are told that the following #s of SDs were built by the RMN.
Samothrace : 7
King William : 25
Anduril : 14
Victory : 36
Sphinx : 67
Gryphon : 163

We were told that the surviving members of the King William and Anduril Classes were sold to Erewhon, and the 34 remaining Victories and all the old ex-Havenite SDs were sold to Grayson at scrap prices.

The 1920 Fleet list tells us that 225 Manty SDs survived in the Manty fleet on March 1st 1920, and textex tells that they were only 3 classes – Samothrace, Sphinx, and Gryphon, are still in the Manty fleet. The total build counts of these 3 classes was 237 – meaning that 12 ships of these 3 classes were lost In the first war. In addition, only 2 Victory class ships were lost in the first war, intimating that the newer classes had lower loss rates that the smaller/older SDs and the DNs.

So where am I going with all this? Well, chances are that most (or, at least, many) of the 12 losses were the smaller, less well defended Samothraces. We know at least 1 survived, meaning that as many as 6 may have been destroyed in the first war. When were they destroyed? Well we were told they were all usually used as station flagships, and given their older, more fragile nature and the fact that Sphinx/Gryphon flag variants exist, we can assume they were not usually allocated for offensive fleet uses. Like the ex – Havenite Capitol ships, they were probably used as “backwater” station flagships in defensive locations to maximize their potential and minimize their weaknesses. Such fleets were probably also filled out with the Ad Astra and Royal Winton DNs, allowing newer, more powerful ships to be concentrated on the front.

If so, when would a Samothrace, which probably was rarely used in offensives and overly risked, be lost? Well, the best guess is whenever a behind the front lines system picket with a capital ship presence got completely blown away, a Samothrace was lost. And of which we know of 4 – Santino’s loss at Seaford 9 (his flagship was the Hadrian), The 2 taskforces lost at Basilisk and the task force lost at Yalta under Harry Styles with cold impellers at the beginning of the war. Can anyone think of where another Samothrace could have been lost in the 1st war?

Samothrace and Hercules are the 2 names we know for the ship class. Could the Hadrian be a third? What could be the names of the other 4?


Hercules, Kumhalo's falg ship is a Samothrace IIRC.
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Re: Thoughts on Samothrace SDs.
Post by munroburton   » Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:57 am

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Does all six have to be destroyed? I'm not so sure about that. Also, I think Harry Styles was only in charge of a BC squadron plus screen(similar to Adm Sarnow's Hancock task group), not a battle squadron.

But if you're looking for another two destroyed pickets, what about Alizon and Zanzibar during Operation Icarus? I think Admiral Tourville's task force blew everything in those two systems away, including their pickets.

That's quite something. If you're correct, then Operation Icarus probably killed most of the Samothraces; five of seven. Two at Basilisk and one each at Seaford Nine, Alizon and Zanzibar.
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Re: Thoughts on Samothrace SDs.
Post by Theemile   » Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:10 pm

Theemile
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Posts: 2858
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Location: Toledo, Ohio USA

munroburton wrote:Does all six have to be destroyed? I'm not so sure about that. Also, I think Harry Styles was only in charge of a BC squadron plus screen(similar to Adm Sarnow's Hancock task group), not a battle squadron.

But if you're looking for another two destroyed pickets, what about Alizon and Zanzibar during Operation Icarus? I think Admiral Tourville's task force blew everything in those two systems away, including their pickets.

That's quite something. If you're correct, then Operation Icarus probably killed most of the Samothraces; five of seven. Two at Basilisk and one each at Seaford Nine, Alizon and Zanzibar.


munroburton wrote:Does all six have to be destroyed? I'm not so sure about that. Also, I think Harry Styles was only in charge of a BC squadron plus screen(similar to Adm Sarnow's Hancock task group), not a battle squadron.

But if you're looking for another two destroyed pickets, what about Alizon and Zanzibar during Operation Icarus? I think Admiral Tourville's task force blew everything in those two systems away, including their pickets.

That's quite something. If you're correct, then Operation Icarus probably killed most of the Samothraces; five of seven. Two at Basilisk and one each at Seaford Nine, Alizon and Zanzibar.


No, all 7 could have survived. The Victory class losses were 1/18, which is the same ratio of the losses of the Samothraces/Sphinx/Gryphons to the build numbers of Sphinx/Gryphons (12/230, or ~1/19). Which suggests that all the "modern" SD designs were equally effective. Which makes sense, in a way, since they were actually one build, constantly being improved, and the class changes are points where major changes were made.

All the Samothraces could have been sufficiently behind the lines so none were lost.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Thoughts on Samothrace SDs.
Post by robert132   » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:37 pm

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Posts: 550
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Theemile wrote:No, all 7 could have survived. The Victory class losses were 1/18, which is the same ratio of the losses of the Samothraces/Sphinx/Gryphons to the build numbers of Sphinx/Gryphons (12/230, or ~1/19). Which suggests that all the "modern" SD designs were equally effective. Which makes sense, in a way, since they were actually one build, constantly being improved, and the class changes are points where major changes were made.

All the Samothraces could have been sufficiently behind the lines so none were lost.


There is also the possibility that at least some of the losses (if any) were at the BOM when much of the Wall protecting against ADM Tourville's fleet was made up of standard SDs with towed and tractored pods. The Manty wall wasn't just decimated, it was thoroughly destroyed IIRC.
****

Just my opinion of course and probably not worth the paper it's not written on.
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Re: Thoughts on Samothrace SDs.
Post by Theemile   » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:22 pm

Theemile
Admiral

Posts: 2858
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:50 pm
Location: Toledo, Ohio USA

robert132 wrote:
Theemile wrote:No, all 7 could have survived. The Victory class losses were 1/18, which is the same ratio of the losses of the Samothraces/Sphinx/Gryphons to the build numbers of Sphinx/Gryphons (12/230, or ~1/19). Which suggests that all the "modern" SD designs were equally effective. Which makes sense, in a way, since they were actually one build, constantly being improved, and the class changes are points where major changes were made.

All the Samothraces could have been sufficiently behind the lines so none were lost.


There is also the possibility that at least some of the losses (if any) were at the BOM when much of the Wall protecting against ADM Tourville's fleet was made up of standard SDs with towed and tractored pods. The Manty wall wasn't just decimated, it was thoroughly destroyed IIRC.


I'm working off the March, 1920 Fleet list and the May 1st 1921 HOS publication. Both preceed the BoMA Losses. Theoretically those build numbers and the 1920 fleet size should help determine the 1st war losses.

However your point is valid, if there was a surviving Samothrace which was rolling into/out of the reserve at the time of BoMA, it would have been part of Homefleet at BoMA, and subsequently lost. However, chances are that any other Samothrace will be like the Hercules - being the flagship at an important base well behind enemy lines, and it isn't worth the value of using newer SD or SD(p) flagship variant in the role. Silesia, Idaho, Sidemore are all important locations which deserve a multi capital ship presence, but with a relatively low threat level.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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