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Genetic engineering ?

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Re: Genetic engineering ?
Post by Eagleeye   » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:26 am

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Manpower doesn't play by the rules - in fact, Albrecht Detweilers opposition to the creation of the Code of Beowulf was one (if not the) reason he left Beowulf. There is textev, but I can't remember exactly, where ... Best guess would be ToF or CoG
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Re: Genetic engineering ?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:36 am

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quite possibly a cat wrote:Saying you can't make synthetic genes or import non-human DNA seems like something that might get into a code designed to limit gene modding. I'm not saying its particularly rational rule, or even well defined rule. It sounds like it was riddled with implicit and/or explicit assumptions.
In theory (though hopefully those minor parts of the code dealing with physician responsibility would block this) it might even end up creating a perverse incentive.

Logically that seems to say that I as the mad geneticist can use any gene sequence I can find in any human, anywhere. So if we ignore morality it seems that the mad geneticist would have more genes to legally play with if he had access to a large population that couldn't avoid living in a nasty mutagenic environment (radiation, chemical waste, whatever)

Logically that encourages as many natural mutations as possible in those human populations I have genetic access to - creating the widest possible pallet of 'legal' genes to use. Yes 99.999% of those natural mutations will be harmful, but darn it if I break enough eggs I can find those 1 in a million sequences that are new improvements that I can lucratively offer others (not stuck in my mutagenic nightmare world)

Oops.
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Re: Genetic engineering ?
Post by quite possibly a cat   » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:33 pm

quite possibly a cat
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Jonathan_S wrote:
quite possibly a cat wrote:Saying you can't make synthetic genes or import non-human DNA seems like something that might get into a code designed to limit gene modding. I'm not saying its particularly rational rule, or even well defined rule. It sounds like it was riddled with implicit and/or explicit assumptions.
In theory (though hopefully those minor parts of the code dealing with physician responsibility would block this) it might even end up creating a perverse incentive.

Logically that seems to say that I as the mad geneticist can use any gene sequence I can find in any human, anywhere. So if we ignore morality it seems that the mad geneticist would have more genes to legally play with if he had access to a large population that couldn't avoid living in a nasty mutagenic environment (radiation, chemical waste, whatever)

Logically that encourages as many natural mutations as possible in those human populations I have genetic access to - creating the widest possible pallet of 'legal' genes to use. Yes 99.999% of those natural mutations will be harmful, but darn it if I break enough eggs I can find those 1 in a million sequences that are new improvements that I can lucratively offer others (not stuck in my mutagenic nightmare world)

Oops.
Its even easier than that. There are plenty of parts of the human DNA where the sequence doesn't really matter, and have already become highly mutated. Then you splice that DNA around to make whatever you want and insert some promoter stuff. No need for a mutagenic nightmare world! That's pretty clearly not the spirit of the Code, but its what happens if you take one interpretation to the extreme.

Of course, the other extreme interpretation is that any change short of replacing a whole chromosome is creating a novel DNA molecule. Again obviously not the spirit of the code.

That's what I meant by not well defined.

A more insidious loophole occurs to me though. You could probably find a lot of useful genetic sequences in genetic slaves. Now being the law-abiding, ethical person that you are you would obviously never consider paying Mesa to make genetic slaves, but what if you passed a law that legalized piracy against genetic slave ships? I mean a law that let you rescue genetic slaves?

Then you could free the slaves, bring them to your planet and then get all the cool new genetic sequences Manpower is creating! This has some pretty big advantages over creating them yourself. Notably, someone else does most of the R&D and they come pre-tested! You also get to sell the slaver ships and get good PR. All the benefits of Mesa's genetic research, for less cost AND everyone thinks your a hero.

This could also be a good excuse if anyone asks why you seem to have a large number of Mesa designed gene mods among your elites. "What? No! We didn't get these from Mesa. We got these from some people we rescued from pirates."
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Re: Genetic engineering ?
Post by runsforcelery   » Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:23 pm

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quite possibly a cat wrote:Saying you can't make synthetic genes or import non-human DNA seems like something that might get into a code designed to limit gene modding. I'm not saying its particularly rational rule, or even well defined rule. It sounds like it was riddled with implicit and/or explicit assumptions.



Jonathan_S wrote:
In theory (though hopefully those minor parts of the code dealing with physician responsibility would block this) it might even end up creating a perverse incentive.

Logically that seems to say that I as the mad geneticist can use any gene sequence I can find in any human, anywhere. So if we ignore morality it seems that the mad geneticist would have more genes to legally play with if he had access to a large population that couldn't avoid living in a nasty mutagenic environment (radiation, chemical waste, whatever)

Logically that encourages as many natural mutations as possible in those human populations I have genetic access to - creating the widest possible pallet of 'legal' genes to use. Yes 99.999% of those natural mutations will be harmful, but darn it if I break enough eggs I can find those 1 in a million sequences that are new improvements that I can lucratively offer others (not stuck in my mutagenic nightmare world)

Oops.

quite possibly a cat wrote:
Its even easier than that. There are plenty of parts of the human DNA where the sequence doesn't really matter, and have already become highly mutated. Then you splice that DNA around to make whatever you want and insert some promoter stuff. No need for a mutagenic nightmare world! That's pretty clearly not the spirit of the Code, but its what happens if you take one interpretation to the extreme.

Of course, the other extreme interpretation is that any change short of replacing a whole chromosome is creating a novel DNA molecule. Again obviously not the spirit of the code.

That's what I meant by not well defined.

A more insidious loophole occurs to me though. You could probably find a lot of useful genetic sequences in genetic slaves. Now being the law-abiding, ethical person that you are you would obviously never consider paying Mesa to make genetic slaves, but what if you passed a law that legalized piracy against genetic slave ships? I mean a law that let you rescue genetic slaves?

Then you could free the slaves, bring them to your planet and then get all the cool new genetic sequences Manpower is creating! This has some pretty big advantages over creating them yourself. Notably, someone else does most of the R&D and they come pre-tested! You also get to sell the slaver ships and get good PR. All the benefits of Mesa's genetic research, for less cost AND everyone thinks your a hero.

This could also be a good excuse if anyone asks why you seem to have a large number of Mesa designed gene mods among your elites. "What? No! We didn't get these from Mesa. We got these from some people we rescued from pirates."



If you pay attention, a very large amount of Mesa-designed ex-slave genetic material has already entered the populations of Beowulf, Haven, and Manticore precisely because of the Cherwell Convention.

Which basically does exactly what you're suggesting where the classification of slave ships is concerned.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Genetic engineering ?
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:29 pm

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quite possibly a cat wrote:Saying you can't make synthetic genes or import non-human DNA seems like something that might get into a code designed to limit gene modding. I'm not saying its particularly rational rule, or even well defined rule. It sounds like it was riddled with implicit and/or explicit assumptions.
Jonathan_S wrote:
In theory (though hopefully those minor parts of the code dealing with physician responsibility would block this) it might even end up creating a perverse incentive.

Logically that seems to say that I as the mad geneticist can use any gene sequence I can find in any human, anywhere. So if we ignore morality it seems that the mad geneticist would have more genes to legally play with if he had access to a large population that couldn't avoid living in a nasty mutagenic environment (radiation, chemical waste, whatever)

Logically that encourages as many natural mutations as possible in those human populations I have genetic access to - creating the widest possible pallet of 'legal' genes to use. Yes 99.999% of those natural mutations will be harmful, but darn it if I break enough eggs I can find those 1 in a million sequences that are new improvements that I can lucratively offer others (not stuck in my mutagenic nightmare world)

Oops.
quite possibly a cat wrote:
Its even easier than that. There are plenty of parts of the human DNA where the sequence doesn't really matter, and have already become highly mutated. Then you splice that DNA around to make whatever you want and insert some promoter stuff. No need for a mutagenic nightmare world! That's pretty clearly not the spirit of the Code, but its what happens if you take one interpretation to the extreme.

Of course, the other extreme interpretation is that any change short of replacing a whole chromosome is creating a novel DNA molecule. Again obviously not the spirit of the code.

That's what I meant by not well defined.

A more insidious loophole occurs to me though. You could probably find a lot of useful genetic sequences in genetic slaves. Now being the law-abiding, ethical person that you are you would obviously never consider paying Mesa to make genetic slaves, but what if you passed a law that legalized piracy against genetic slave ships? I mean a law that let you rescue genetic slaves?

Then you could free the slaves, bring them to your planet and then get all the cool new genetic sequences Manpower is creating! This has some pretty big advantages over creating them yourself. Notably, someone else does most of the R&D and they come pre-tested! You also get to sell the slaver ships and get good PR. All the benefits of Mesa's genetic research, for less cost AND everyone thinks your a hero.

This could also be a good excuse if anyone asks why you seem to have a large number of Mesa designed gene mods among your elites. "What? No! We didn't get these from Mesa. We got these from some people we rescued from pirates."

runsforcelery wrote:If you pay attention, a very large amount of Mesa-designed ex-slave genetic material has already entered the populations of Beowulf, Haven, and Manticore precisely because of the Cherwell Convention.

Which basically does exactly what you're suggesting where the classification of slave ships is concerned.

Dang! The Beowulfers have participated in the general genetic uplift experiment and distribution regardless of their beliefs. The not-so-visibly-genius crafty MAlign members are a bit smarter than some might credit, eh?
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Re: Genetic engineering ?
Post by pappilon   » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:12 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Dang! The Beowulfers have participated in the general genetic uplift experiment and distribution regardless of their beliefs. The not-so-visibly-genius crafty MAlign members are a bit smarter than some might credit, eh?


Of course they have. They have no issue with what Allison did in Grayson. They haveproblems with creating Alpha Line Supermen to rule over the Beta Lines blah blah. I'm not sure where a line of bodyguards with enhances vision, hearing etc fits in. And of Course they are, they're genetically modified to be smarter than ... Anyone Else. Unfortunately with genetic superiority comes hubris. Which Commodore Topolev kept warning his crew against during Oyster Bay.
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Re: Genetic engineering ?
Post by ldwechsler   » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:04 pm

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I am confused.

We have been told that non human genes should not be used but we know they are being used...not the doctor Sying-yi on Ginger Lewis's ship.

If that has been going on for a while some of those will have gotten into a lot of extra genetic systems. After all, it would make sense if one could improve sense of smell or hearing based on predator animal senses. Good for bodyguards, assorted thugs.

All those slaves who have those and wind up escaping from Manpower could start spreading them.

Interesting ethics question: If some of those mods are already in people, should the mods be eliminated if the people with them have babies?
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Re: Genetic engineering ?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:48 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:I am confused.

We have been told that non human genes should not be used but we know they are being used...not the doctor Sying-yi on Ginger Lewis's ship.

If that has been going on for a while some of those will have gotten into a lot of extra genetic systems. After all, it would make sense if one could improve sense of smell or hearing based on predator animal senses. Good for bodyguards, assorted thugs.

All those slaves who have those and wind up escaping from Manpower could start spreading them.

Interesting ethics question: If some of those mods are already in people, should the mods be eliminated if the people with them have babies?

My guess, and it is just a guess, is that any mods in genetic slaves with a known non-human source can't be applied to other people by a geneticist but that they do not have to be gene scrubbed out if a geneticist has to do other work on the genome - or if a reproductive specialist has to be involved in procreation (whether IVF style, or tubing).

IOW I'm guessing it would be a violation of the Code to deliberately apply those mods to others, but not a violation to leave them alone and let nature take it's course (even if unrelated work on the genome is being done)
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Re: Genetic engineering ?
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:20 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
ldwechsler wrote:I am confused.

We have been told that non human genes should not be used but we know they are being used...not the doctor Sying-yi on Ginger Lewis's ship.

If that has been going on for a while some of those will have gotten into a lot of extra genetic systems. After all, it would make sense if one could improve sense of smell or hearing based on predator animal senses. Good for bodyguards, assorted thugs.

All those slaves who have those and wind up escaping from Manpower could start spreading them.

Interesting ethics question: If some of those mods are already in people, should the mods be eliminated if the people with them have babies?

My guess, and it is just a guess, is that any mods in genetic slaves with a known non-human source can't be applied to other people by a geneticist but that they do not have to be gene scrubbed out if a geneticist has to do other work on the genome - or if a reproductive specialist has to be involved in procreation (whether IVF style, or tubing).

IOW I'm guessing it would be a violation of the Code to deliberately apply those mods to others, but not a violation to leave them alone and let nature take it's course (even if unrelated work on the genome is being done)

Eventually even those animal gene sequences become "human" as they are disseminated in the human population. In that way establishing the pleasure slave lines was the entree into disseminating the wilder gene mods into the human gene pool. If you can take a pleasure slave for a spouse, why not a slave with more exotic gene mods?

Seriously, the MAlign were already winning in the battle of wits with Beowulf. They're distasteful experiments have generated results that Beowulf has become the champion of disseminating across the galaxy. Manticore and Haven are just behind. The MAlign was winning! Why the blazes did they need to start a war? Isn't the definition of victory making the enemy do what you ultimately want? The MAlign had won and all they needed o do is to marry/mate into as many key polities as they could cozen into.

Hubris, the bane of mankind. It haunts anyone that excels, especially those that excel spectacularly.
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Re: Genetic engineering ?
Post by pappilon   » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:48 pm

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Again The good doctor's grandmother or such was a genetic slave custom built by Manpower, They refuse to accept Beowulf's genetic restrictions. Why are we expecting Manpower, or even the Genetic Uplift Department to follow the rules they rejected 600 years ago? IIRC [yes, I know- :roll: ] all the people in the GA with weird features, except perhaps Pritchard, can trace their lineage to rescued genetic slaves
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