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Albrecht

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Albrecht
Post by zuluwiz   » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:56 pm

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Has anyone ever seen anything regarding the family tree of Albrecht Detweiler? Do we know anything of his parents, etc.? Seeing that his name starts with A and his "sons'" names start with B and go on in alphabetical order......was Albrecht a clone of Leonard Detweiler? I would be curious to see what clues the Mad Wizard has left for us in this matter.
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Re: Albrecht
Post by JohnRoth   » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:01 pm

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zuluwiz wrote:Has anyone ever seen anything regarding the family tree of Albrecht Detweiler? Do we know anything of his parents, etc.? Seeing that his name starts with A and his "sons'" names start with B and go on in alphabetical order......was Albrecht a clone of Leonard Detweiler? I would be curious to see what clues the Mad Wizard has left for us in this matter.


Here it is;

on 2014-04-14 RFC wrote:Since I’ve already wandered somewhat afield from the topic I originally set out to discuss, I should also point out that Albrecht Detweiler and his sons are not clones of Leonard Detweiler. They are, in effect, the current generation of the steadily improved Detweiler genotype. Remember we’re talking about a prolong society here, and the actual age difference between Albrecht and Benjamin isn’t very great for that sort of society. Nor are the offspring of the Detweiler “sons” genetic duplicates of their parents. Albrecht was cloned, frankly, because by all of the tests the Alignment could apply, he was going to be an incredibly capable generalist and leader and the Long-Range Planning Board decided that given how far into the endgame of the Alignment’s strategy they were, it made a great deal of sense to provide an entire cohort of equally capable leaders to whom Albrecht could delegate areas of responsibility.
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Re: Albrecht
Post by pappilon   » Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:46 pm

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JohnRoth wrote:
zuluwiz wrote:Has anyone ever seen anything regarding the family tree of Albrecht Detweiler? Do we know anything of his parents, etc.? Seeing that his name starts with A and his "sons'" names start with B and go on in alphabetical order......was Albrecht a clone of Leonard Detweiler? I would be curious to see what clues the Mad Wizard has left for us in this matter.


Here it is;

on 2014-04-14 RFC wrote:Since I’ve already wandered somewhat afield from the topic I originally set out to discuss, I should also point out that Albrecht Detweiler and his sons are not clones of Leonard Detweiler. They are, in effect, the current generation of the steadily improved Detweiler genotype. Remember we’re talking about a prolong society here, and the actual age difference between Albrecht and Benjamin isn’t very great for that sort of society. Nor are the offspring of the Detweiler “sons” genetic duplicates of their parents. Albrecht was cloned, frankly, because by all of the tests the Alignment could apply, he was going to be an incredibly capable generalist and leader and the Long-Range Planning Board decided that given how far into the endgame of the Alignment’s strategy they were, it made a great deal of sense to provide an entire cohort of equally capable leaders to whom Albrecht could delegate areas of responsibility.
[/quote

"The most heavily modified genome of any of the star lines." There is no Family Tree. There are only decanted Detweiller embryos. There is no mating involved, no random genetic pairings to screw with perfection. I assume, Albrecht's grandchildren are also Detweiller decantations. Not sure how the cloning occurs ... But it is not because husband and wife had relations and Oops.
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Re: Albrecht
Post by ldwechsler   » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:36 pm

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I think the Detweilers are not doing what we think of as cloning. Remember that it is not uncommon for work to be done after fertilization with the original diploid cell.

Mostly, through the galaxy to stop diseases.

So you could do the same with a clone and do a few modifications. After all, every hundred years you would expect improvements. Albrecht might be a clone of Leonard but he was created much later. There would have been a real lot of genetic experimentation in that time and it would make sense for those to be built in.

While not a geneticist myself, I remember reading that there are a whole group of genes that affect intelligence. Chances are in 2000 years, someone might know where a tweak or two might be valuable.

I would guess perfect memory would be a rare mutation (it so seldom happens) but I would be shocked if a group looking to improve and eventually take over wouldn't work on that particular thing. It would make any really bright person just that more effective.

I wonder if each of the "boys" that were cloned is an exact copy of the others. A minor change in a couple of places might at least differentiate them.
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Re: Albrecht
Post by JohnRoth   » Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:43 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:I think the Detweilers are not doing what we think of as cloning. Remember that it is not uncommon for work to be done after fertilization with the original diploid cell.

Mostly, through the galaxy to stop diseases.

So you could do the same with a clone and do a few modifications. After all, every hundred years you would expect improvements. Albrecht might be a clone of Leonard but he was created much later. There would have been a real lot of genetic experimentation in that time and it would make sense for those to be built in.


My reading of the series is that they're using pretty standard selective breeding with enhancements. Stuff we've been doing for practically forever, with the enhancements being tested out in the genetic slave lines before being installed in the star lines. This is the reason why entertainer and sex slave lines are deadly unless you treat them right: they're the ones the intelligence mods get tested on, so they're a lot more intelligent than their owners.

ldwechsler wrote:While not a geneticist myself, I remember reading that there are a whole group of genes that affect intelligence. Chances are in 2000 years, someone might know where a tweak or two might be valuable.


That's backwards; the studies show that there is no single gene that has even a 1% effect on intelligence; even with that, there is no study that shows causality, just causation. And those are total genome screens, so there's unlikely to be any magic trigger anywhere.

ldwechsler wrote:I would guess perfect memory would be a rare mutation (it so seldom happens) but I would be shocked if a group looking to improve and eventually take over wouldn't work on that particular thing. It would make any really bright person just that more effective.


The stories I've seen from people who have "perfect" memories are either that it's an illusion or it's a curse. Being unable to forget is not a blessing. Ask anyone with PTSD.

ldwechsler wrote:I wonder if each of the "boys" that were cloned is an exact copy of the others. A minor change in a couple of places might at least differentiate them.
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Re: Albrecht
Post by runsforcelery   » Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:47 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:I think the Detweilers are not doing what we think of as cloning. Remember that it is not uncommon for work to be done after fertilization with the original diploid cell.

Mostly, through the galaxy to stop diseases.

So you could do the same with a clone and do a few modifications. After all, every hundred years you would expect improvements. Albrecht might be a clone of Leonard but he was created much later. There would have been a real lot of genetic experimentation in that time and it would make sense for those to be built in.

While not a geneticist myself, I remember reading that there are a whole group of genes that affect intelligence. Chances are in 2000 years, someone might know where a tweak or two might be valuable.

I would guess perfect memory would be a rare mutation (it so seldom happens) but I would be shocked if a group looking to improve and eventually take over wouldn't work on that particular thing. It would make any really bright person just that more effective.

I wonder if each of the "boys" that wzere cloned is an exact copy of the others. A minor change in a couple of places might at least differentiate them.



Albrecht and the boys are genetically identical, but they are very different from Leonard, the original "base model." I believe I've already commented somewhere else that their genome is one of the most highly modified in the entire Alignment. It has been continuously – if cautiously – modified for a long, long time now. Despite which, they very definitely have a family tree in both senses of the word. The geneticists have detailed records of what has been tweaked and what hasn't been tweaked in their genotype. This means that they can go back and determine exactly "what" is descended from "where." In addition, the Alignment (at least for its members) does regard clones (which aren't culled for genetic reasons before ever leaving the lab, that is) as legal individuals and citizens in their own right. And it has also learned that children raised in a family situation are usually more stable and healthier than children raised in a creche/institutional situation. Because of that most clones (except for the purely experimental, usually high-risk ones like Frederica Simoes) are normally fostered to regular families and the clones placed with a family are legally the children of that family in every sense of the word, certainly as much as any adopted child. There are exceptions, unfortunately. Some of the children produced are so far from the original baseline that they are raised in creches where their "oddities" won't be noticed by the general public, and those children can be - and often are – terminated at any time, based upon the success or failure of the outcome being sought.

In this regard, I should probably point out that Frederca was never "culled" in the classic sense of the word. All of her failed predecessors in the experimental program had been culled because they had failed, and because the Alignment doesn't regard experimental clones as people until/unless the experiment proves a success. Actually, that's pretty much true of all clones. It's rather like the situation in China, where a child can be terminated right up to the moment it draws its first breath, but is rigorously protected by the law if it comes down the birth canal successfully even if it violates the state mandated limitation on numbers of children. Once they have been "passed" by the people running the program, however, they are protected like any other child. Frederica was an exception to normal policy [and Herlander's reaction demonstrates why such exceptions are made very rarely] because of the special nature of the outcome they were seeking. She was regarded as a high-risk project whose potential justified stepping outside the usual procedures even though the folks running the program believed she was unlikely to succeed (from their perspective), anyway. And I think it is probably worthwhile to note that she was terminated not because of her "failure" per se but rather as a "quality of life" decision on the part of the medical establishment. Herlander's fierce love for her actually wasn't at all atypical of the attitudes of cloned children's parents in general. It was his passionate rejection of the "everyone accepts" notion that the quality of life available to her would have been unacceptable that really set him apart where she was concerned. His wife also loved their daughter dearly, but she'd held back at least a bit of the unconditional love he'd invested in her. Probably because she recognized that her survival was always a high-risk proposition. In the end, though, the real break between them came because she bought into the notion that it would be "kinder" to kill the girl rather then have her spend decades institutionalized, probably without even realizing that she was alive.


But to return to my original point, there is most definitely a genetic/biological/medical family tree, on the one hand, and a "family" family tree, on the other, for pretty much every member of the Onion, whether they were naturally conceived or produced as a tweaked clone. For medical purposes, their doctors would consult the former; for every other purpose, they would consult the latter.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Albrecht
Post by Annachie   » Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:44 am

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I figgured that the boys were clones of Albrecht, but with tweaks to their genetic structure.

Never thought that they were the same.

Interesting.
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Re: Albrecht
Post by ldwechsler   » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:20 am

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Annachie wrote:I figgured that the boys were clones of Albrecht, but with tweaks to their genetic structure.

Never thought that they were the same.

Interesting.



It would be nice if they were able to sneak in a few genes from their "mother."
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Re: Albrecht
Post by runsforcelery   » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:46 am

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ldwechsler wrote:
Annachie wrote:I figgured that the boys were clones of Albrecht, but with tweaks to their genetic structure.

Never thought that they were the same.

Interesting.



It would be nice if they were able to sneak in a few genes from their "mother."



I think the post from me from 2014 that pappilon quoted above makes it clear that he and his sons are the "current generation" Detweiler genome. That is, the Alignment decided its head was going to need some really capable lieutenants Sometime Real Soon Now and decided to duplicate Albrecht to provide them. This is the first time they've done that, and it represents a response to a specific situation, not their long term policy, which has been to crank in incremental tweaks in each generation.

And also, in each generation, there's been room for "sneaking in a few genes" from a broad range of donors, which may or may not include either or both parents. In the MA's case, though, (and especially in its upper echelons) direct genetic contribution to one's child is often the exception rather than the rule. Which doesn't prevent parent from loving child just as much as any other parent and child in human history.

One might reasonably think of this (at least in terms of intents) as removing random chance from the process of producing children with the object of making each generation as good as it can possibly be. The upside to that should, I think, be obvious. The downside is that, as in the case of the Onion, children wind up designed (literally) for specific roles/tasks/jobs. In that respect, the Onion is no different from Manpower, when you come down to it, which is a deliberate irony on my part.


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Albrecht
Post by Peregrinator   » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:05 am

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Wouldn't it be weird if the Mesan "star lines" were effectively "domesticated," like say, silk moths or various cultivars of plants, to the degree where they were dependent upon the laboratory for reproduction? :twisted:
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